Convoy hunting = frustrating!

Raven Morpheus · 10-27-13, 03:04 AM

Hey there

I've been playing SH4 the last few days, I've got the Game Fixes Only mod installed (and that's the only mod I've got installed) and I'm finding convoy hunting frustrating.

It's my first mission and I've been assigned the Honshu area mission.

So far I've managed to find 2 convoys.

However neither of them seemed to travel in a straight line!

I've tried getting closer to a ship, so the line turns into a red marker on the nav map, and then following it with a little time compression on and it seems they move away from me all the time, curving their routes around all over the place.

When I save and re-load a game however and go to the nav map I can briefly see before the red markers disappear that all the ships in a convoy appear to be as you expect - in a line moving in one direction. So I try to mark their predicted course (you'd expect them to move in a straight line forwards) by marking a corridor with 2 lines either side of the convoy going in the rough direction they're pointing, but they never follow that path! They always seem to turn away from that route and then seem to start moving all over the place!

The convoys I've found also seem to have very large gaps between each ship (far larger than convoys on SH5, something like 2000 yards or more) and they're escorted by destroyers, which so far have managed to find me every single time even though it looks like there is fog and I'm at periscope depth, not moving and on silent running!

I'd just love to find a convoy that follows a straight path with no deviations so I can intercept it!

Any tips on following convoys like the one's I've mentioned above that I've encountered?

TIA

ZAGOR64BZ · 10-27-13, 09:32 AM

Hi man!
I'm far from been an expert by any means, but have you ever considered the fact that the behave like that because they spot you? Are you getting too close before diving?If spotted, the convoy will scattered and not following predictable routes. As far as DD, active sonar can and will detect you even standing still at periscope depth. Only thermal layer con conceal you.MOST OF THE TIMES, but not allways!

fireftr18 · 10-27-13, 12:56 PM

Zagor has a point. You may have been spotted or found by pinging. Best to get deep and follow the convoy via sonar. Wait until it's close to go to periscope depth. Also remember, the convoys will turn course just like the did in real life.

merc4ulfate · 10-27-13, 05:49 PM

If you playing the Allied side I would highly advice you to get TMO, RSRD and /or the RFB mods. They have more of a normal shipping traffic in historically known shipping lanes.

There is nothing wrong with spotting convoys on the surface but perhaps your attack and evasion methods need to be worked on. The large mod packs also make the escorts and operation of the submarine more realistic. Things such as fish loading times, dive times, and efficiency of the escorts are generally made to be more realistic. For most if not all larger mod packs you will need to upgrade the stock game to 1.5.

That being said realism can get you killed so happy sailing on that.

If you enjoy playing the German side as I do then this mod list is the best:

Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
OpsMonsun_V705
OMv705_to_V720
OMv720_Patch5
OMEGU_v300
OMEGU_v300_Patch7
OM_Harder_Escort_L2
UBM Missions
Popular German Music From The 30´s
OM_Pac_Env
#1 Real Environment mod install

Raven Morpheus · 10-27-13, 11:56 PM

Thanks.

I'll try diving to the thermal layer and see if I get any better results (although I'm not 100% sure of how to follow contacts on SONAR) - how deep is the thermal layer BTW?

Also need to work out the diving controls as well, in SH5 I use the keyboard shortcuts or the menu buttons along the left side - in SH4 the only thing I can find so far is 1 "periscope depth" button or "crash dive" button or the dial - I'd rather use keyboard shortcuts for diving to specific depths than use the dial as it's qiucker, guess I'll have to check the manual.

I'm kind of a noob anyway, in SH5 I generally spot convoys from persicope depth and don't seem to generally have any trouble doing it.

I also don't like the way the ship contacts are represented on the nav map in SH4 - usually they're just a line (blue for warships and black for merchants), you seem to have to get really close and be at periscope depth to get a proper red mark showing the little ship icon. That works fine in SH5 for me, but obviously it's not working for me in SH4.

Perhaps I'm looking at the map in too high a scale but all I generally see (apart from the contact reports you get once in a while) is those lines and they don't make tracking a convoy easy because I can't properly see which direction the convoy is moving in so I always end up having to follow them rather than plot an intercept course.

As for playing as the Germans, I was getting bored of playing Das Boot in SH5 (even with Open Horizons II) and I've barely got past the first part of the campaign. Hence I'm now playing SH4 - change of theatre and all that.

Thanks for the suggested list of mods though.

I do have TMO, so I may install that (I previously played SH4 with it but gave up after a while, I got frustrated with having to wait hours just to get to a destination (even with time compression), but I've gotten used to that with SH5). Haven't got RSRD so I'll look that one up.

Maybe I just had bad luck with these 2 convoys but it definitely seems harder to track convoys in SH4 compared to SH5.

magic452 · 10-28-13, 12:22 AM

You might pick up some good info here.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=208242

Magic

fireftr18 · 10-28-13, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven Morpheus

Thanks.

I'll try diving to the thermal layer and see if I get any better results (although I'm not 100% sure of how to follow contacts on SONAR) - how deep is the thermal layer BTW?

The thermal layer varies. You need to check it every game, even in different areas. Be sure to go about 50 feet below.

Quote:

Also need to work out the diving controls as well, in SH5 I use the keyboard shortcuts or the menu buttons along the left side - in SH4 the only thing I can find so far is 1 "periscope depth" button or "crash dive" button or the dial - I'd rather use keyboard shortcuts for diving to specific depths than use the dial as it's qiucker, guess I'll have to check the manual.

Keyboard shortcuts have a "dive" button and a "level off" button, but no specific depth. I like clicking on the dial myself, so I don't know those off the top of my head.

Quote:

I'm kind of a noob anyway, in SH5 I generally spot convoys from persicope depth and don't seem to generally have any trouble doing it.

I also don't like the way the ship contacts are represented on the nav map in SH4 - usually they're just a line (blue for warships and black for merchants), you seem to have to get really close and be at periscope depth to get a proper red mark showing the little ship icon. That works fine in SH5 for me, but obviously it's not working for me in SH4.

Perhaps I'm looking at the map in too high a scale but all I generally see (apart from the contact reports you get once in a while) is those lines and they don't make tracking a convoy easy because I can't properly see which direction the convoy is moving in so I always end up having to follow them rather than plot an intercept course.

You really need to use the map tools. By marking the lines as they move, you can get the direction of travel. From there you can plot a proper intercept course. You don't get the little ship icons until you have visual contact.

Quote:

As for playing as the Germans, I was getting bored of playing Das Boot in SH5 (even with Open Horizons II) and I've barely got past the first part of the campaign. Hence I'm now playing SH4 - change of theatre and all that.

Thanks for the suggested list of mods though.

I do have TMO, so I may install that (I previously played SH4 with it but gave up after a while, I got frustrated with having to wait hours just to get to a destination (even with time compression), but I've gotten used to that with SH5). Haven't got RSRD so I'll look that one up.

Maybe I just had bad luck with these 2 convoys but it definitely seems harder to track convoys in SH4 compared to SH5.

While learning the controls, I suggest waiting on installing TMO. Also, the tutorial missions are your friend. The first one is great for learning and practicing the navigation, diving, and detection controls. Make generous use of it.

merc4ulfate · 10-28-13, 09:49 AM

If you want to add a real challenge to the game your should turn the auto targeting off and simply use manual targeting practices. You would not have to worry about colored lines nor arrow indicators in the scope you can fire when you are pleased with your own solution.

I do not even compute solutions any more. Most of the time I can line myself up so close that I can simply fire when the target is 10 degrees off zero and get hits. Even during the day I can normally get inside a convoy and fire from the stern and forward tubes at two ships simultaneously and wait for a second ship to cross my bow for another shot before having to dive to escape escorts. It helps greatly to have the German G7es homing torpedoes. Many times I allow the escorts to see me and then dive to lead them away from the convoy and then take them out first before attacking to the convoy itself with torpedoes and deck gun.

Some of the environmental mods increases the fog and therefore reduces surface distances where the AI's see you so being that I can control the deck gun myself I can see silhouettes in the fog where my AI crew members can not and use the deck gun without having the opposing vessel fire back. They simply can not see me. On my last patrol I took out 2/3's of the convoy this way after sinking all the escorts with the G7e's.

SnipersHunter · 10-28-13, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireftr18

Zagor has a point. You may have been spotted or found by pinging. Best to get deep and follow the convoy via sonar. Wait until it's close to go to periscope depth. Also remember, the convoys will turn course just like the did in real life.

Yepp that should it be

Raven Morpheus · 10-29-13, 05:15 AM

OK so I've tried what you guys have said and I still can't do it.

I decided to try out the Sub School convoy attack mission.

First thing I do is dive to max depth on the dial to get below the thermal layer. Seems to be between 140ft and max depth on the Sub School mission.

The ship icons are still present but disappearing so after marking the position of the ship that is last in line but on the line of ships closest to me, I proceed with marking the end of the line that represents the position of the ship I just marked. I don't time my marks or anything I just do it when there's a fair gap between the last mark and the new position.

Then after I've got a few marks I start plotting the line the ship should be taking, joining the dots, thus giving me the supposed heading of the convoy.

Then I plot my intercept course.

All the while I'm moving at 2/3 or standard under the water at max depth on the dial.

I mark a circle of about 1000yds radius starting from the point I shall arrive at so that when I get into position I can wait within that circle and then when the ends of the lines you see drawn to indicate the ships are just within that circle I can come up to periscope depth.

In the meantime I set up my torpedos and TDC - I've been using the Dick O'Kane method for this, I seem to have it down to a tee in the torpedo Sub School mission. I set the periscope to 20 (because that's the direction the convoy is coming from), the range to 1500m-ish, the AOB to 70 (starboard with the GFO mod because the convoy is coming from my right) and the speed to 5kts, although I don't at this point know the speed as I've not measured but the markers when clicked on say slow and SONAR concurs.

So, I finally reach my position. I wait for the ships to get into the 1000yd circle and bring the boat up to 55ft, giving me 5ft to compensate for waves and I raise the periscope to take a look.

But I still find the ships have started circling as though they've spotted me!!!!

I've tried setting silent running, I've tried setting battle stations and I've tried crawling along at 1/3 (and ended up being outrun by the convoy)!!

fireftr18 · 10-29-13, 06:42 AM

The tutorial convoy is difficult compared to the base games career convoys. They're much better for practice.

Raven Morpheus · 10-29-13, 07:51 AM

Well I nearly had them just now.

Although I was getting torpedoes exploding in the water before reaching the target which was 4000yds away. I'm guessing either I set the range too low or the torpedoes can't go that far.

So I thought I'd reload after having saved it when I was reaching position. But now, every time I reload, the ships just start turning towards me as though they instantly spot me whereas I comfortably sat at periscope depth watching them for a minute or so after my save point!!

I'll resume my career save and see if I have any better luck (have to find a convoy first) but at this point I'm actually considering going back to SH5 because tracking and taking down a convoy is just so much easier!!

Admiral Halsey · 10-29-13, 09:02 AM

If your using the Mark 14 torp seeing it explode before hitting the target is normal before mid 1943.

magic452 · 10-30-13, 12:34 AM

That school mission is really messed up, for starters the second you start the mission you have already been seen by the escorts, you are far to close to do anything. By this time you should or would be at PD and have all of your firing data figured out. The mission is worthless IMO.

Read my post in the link I gave you. Do a War Patrol that starts after mid '43.
Find a single ship and get some experience with plotting and intercepts and how to approach a target.
You can also patrol around Luzon Strait and find convoys and put what you learned to good use.
Once you find a convoy save the game and get some practice on tracking it and how to best approach.
Just play the save a few times till you get the hang of it.
If you're playing stock there are plenty of targets out there but as opposed to the APO the PTO is a much bigger battlefield
and far more interesting.

Magic

Raven Morpheus · 10-30-13, 09:13 AM

Quote:

That school mission is really messed up, for starters the second you start the mission you have already been seen by the escorts, you are far to close to do anything. By this time you should or would be at PD and have all of your firing data figured out. The mission is worthless IMO.

Well yesterday when I tried the Sub School mission I managed to track them fine, although I did cheat a little and worked out that after a while they turn and come down the map towards you, so I noted a position that would be reasonable to intercept, started again and just went to that position (something like 154 18 by 124 54).

But as I said when I was aiming at the first ship that crossed my path, a ship that was >4km away the first torpedo I fired exploded in the water after what seemed only like a few hundred yards - which meant my cover was basically blown!!

And also even though I'd saved the game about a minute prior to that, when I reloaded it seemed as though I was instantly spotted!!

I will however try what you've suggested, although it's not the actual tracking bit I have a problem with at the moment - it's more getting into position to fire without a convoy/ship going nuts and circling all over the place and DD's depth charging the beejesus out of me.

So far apart from once yesterday (where I was given up by a dodgy torpedo) it seems that even if I creep into position under the thermal layer as soon as I come up to periscope depth convoys spot me instantly.

10-27-13, 12:56 PM	#3
fireftr18 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 2,528 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 0	Zagor has a point. You may have been spotted or found by pinging. Best to get deep and follow the convoy via sonar. Wait until it's close to go to periscope depth. Also remember, the convoys will turn course just like the did in real life. __________________ Of all the forms of Martial Arts, Karaoke causes the most pain!

10-27-13, 11:56 PM	#5
Raven Morpheus Machinist's Mate Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 125 Downloads: 143 Uploads: 0	Thanks. I'll try diving to the thermal layer and see if I get any better results (although I'm not 100% sure of how to follow contacts on SONAR) - how deep is the thermal layer BTW? Also need to work out the diving controls as well, in SH5 I use the keyboard shortcuts or the menu buttons along the left side - in SH4 the only thing I can find so far is 1 "periscope depth" button or "crash dive" button or the dial - I'd rather use keyboard shortcuts for diving to specific depths than use the dial as it's qiucker, guess I'll have to check the manual. I'm kind of a noob anyway, in SH5 I generally spot convoys from persicope depth and don't seem to generally have any trouble doing it. I also don't like the way the ship contacts are represented on the nav map in SH4 - usually they're just a line (blue for warships and black for merchants), you seem to have to get really close and be at periscope depth to get a proper red mark showing the little ship icon. That works fine in SH5 for me, but obviously it's not working for me in SH4. Perhaps I'm looking at the map in too high a scale but all I generally see (apart from the contact reports you get once in a while) is those lines and they don't make tracking a convoy easy because I can't properly see which direction the convoy is moving in so I always end up having to follow them rather than plot an intercept course. As for playing as the Germans, I was getting bored of playing Das Boot in SH5 (even with Open Horizons II) and I've barely got past the first part of the campaign. Hence I'm now playing SH4 - change of theatre and all that. Thanks for the suggested list of mods though. I do have TMO, so I may install that (I previously played SH4 with it but gave up after a while, I got frustrated with having to wait hours just to get to a destination (even with time compression), but I've gotten used to that with SH5). Haven't got RSRD so I'll look that one up. Maybe I just had bad luck with these 2 convoys but it definitely seems harder to track convoys in SH4 compared to SH5. Last edited by Raven Morpheus; 10-28-13 at 12:12 AM.

10-28-13, 12:22 AM	#6
magic452 Sea Lord Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Reno Nevada USA Posts: 1,860 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	You might pick up some good info here. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=208242 Magic __________________ Reported lost 11 Feb. 1942 Signature by depthtok33l

10-28-13, 09:49 AM	#8
merc4ulfate DILLIGAF Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: florida Posts: 2,058 Downloads: 210 Uploads: 0	If you want to add a real challenge to the game your should turn the auto targeting off and simply use manual targeting practices. You would not have to worry about colored lines nor arrow indicators in the scope you can fire when you are pleased with your own solution. I do not even compute solutions any more. Most of the time I can line myself up so close that I can simply fire when the target is 10 degrees off zero and get hits. Even during the day I can normally get inside a convoy and fire from the stern and forward tubes at two ships simultaneously and wait for a second ship to cross my bow for another shot before having to dive to escape escorts. It helps greatly to have the German G7es homing torpedoes. Many times I allow the escorts to see me and then dive to lead them away from the convoy and then take them out first before attacking to the convoy itself with torpedoes and deck gun. Some of the environmental mods increases the fog and therefore reduces surface distances where the AI's see you so being that I can control the deck gun myself I can see silhouettes in the fog where my AI crew members can not and use the deck gun without having the opposing vessel fire back. They simply can not see me. On my last patrol I took out 2/3's of the convoy this way after sinking all the escorts with the G7e's. Last edited by merc4ulfate; 10-31-13 at 10:41 AM.

10-29-13, 05:15 AM	#10
Raven Morpheus Machinist's Mate Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 125 Downloads: 143 Uploads: 0	OK so I've tried what you guys have said and I still can't do it. I decided to try out the Sub School convoy attack mission. First thing I do is dive to max depth on the dial to get below the thermal layer. Seems to be between 140ft and max depth on the Sub School mission. The ship icons are still present but disappearing so after marking the position of the ship that is last in line but on the line of ships closest to me, I proceed with marking the end of the line that represents the position of the ship I just marked. I don't time my marks or anything I just do it when there's a fair gap between the last mark and the new position. Then after I've got a few marks I start plotting the line the ship should be taking, joining the dots, thus giving me the supposed heading of the convoy. Then I plot my intercept course. All the while I'm moving at 2/3 or standard under the water at max depth on the dial. I mark a circle of about 1000yds radius starting from the point I shall arrive at so that when I get into position I can wait within that circle and then when the ends of the lines you see drawn to indicate the ships are just within that circle I can come up to periscope depth. In the meantime I set up my torpedos and TDC - I've been using the Dick O'Kane method for this, I seem to have it down to a tee in the torpedo Sub School mission. I set the periscope to 20 (because that's the direction the convoy is coming from), the range to 1500m-ish, the AOB to 70 (starboard with the GFO mod because the convoy is coming from my right) and the speed to 5kts, although I don't at this point know the speed as I've not measured but the markers when clicked on say slow and SONAR concurs. So, I finally reach my position. I wait for the ships to get into the 1000yd circle and bring the boat up to 55ft, giving me 5ft to compensate for waves and I raise the periscope to take a look. But I still find the ships have started circling as though they've spotted me!!!! I've tried setting silent running, I've tried setting battle stations and I've tried crawling along at 1/3 (and ended up being outrun by the convoy)!! Last edited by Raven Morpheus; 10-29-13 at 05:31 AM.

10-27-13, 03:04 AM	#1
Raven Morpheus Machinist's Mate Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 125 Downloads: 143 Uploads: 0	Convoy hunting = frustrating! Hey there I've been playing SH4 the last few days, I've got the Game Fixes Only mod installed (and that's the only mod I've got installed) and I'm finding convoy hunting frustrating. It's my first mission and I've been assigned the Honshu area mission. So far I've managed to find 2 convoys. However neither of them seemed to travel in a straight line! I've tried getting closer to a ship, so the line turns into a red marker on the nav map, and then following it with a little time compression on and it seems they move away from me all the time, curving their routes around all over the place. When I save and re-load a game however and go to the nav map I can briefly see before the red markers disappear that all the ships in a convoy appear to be as you expect - in a line moving in one direction. So I try to mark their predicted course (you'd expect them to move in a straight line forwards) by marking a corridor with 2 lines either side of the convoy going in the rough direction they're pointing, but they never follow that path! They always seem to turn away from that route and then seem to start moving all over the place! The convoys I've found also seem to have very large gaps between each ship (far larger than convoys on SH5, something like 2000 yards or more) and they're escorted by destroyers, which so far have managed to find me every single time even though it looks like there is fog and I'm at periscope depth, not moving and on silent running! I'd just love to find a convoy that follows a straight path with no deviations so I can intercept it! Any tips on following convoys like the one's I've mentioned above that I've encountered? TIA

10-27-13, 09:32 AM	#2
ZAGOR64BZ Mate Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Italy Posts: 52 Downloads: 231 Uploads: 0	Hi man! I'm far from been an expert by any means, but have you ever considered the fact that the behave like that because they spot you? Are you getting too close before diving?If spotted, the convoy will scattered and not following predictable routes. As far as DD, active sonar can and will detect you even standing still at periscope depth. Only thermal layer con conceal you.MOST OF THE TIMES, but not allways!

10-27-13, 05:49 PM	#4
merc4ulfate DILLIGAF Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: florida Posts: 2,058 Downloads: 210 Uploads: 0	If you playing the Allied side I would highly advice you to get TMO, RSRD and /or the RFB mods. They have more of a normal shipping traffic in historically known shipping lanes. There is nothing wrong with spotting convoys on the surface but perhaps your attack and evasion methods need to be worked on. The large mod packs also make the escorts and operation of the submarine more realistic. Things such as fish loading times, dive times, and efficiency of the escorts are generally made to be more realistic. For most if not all larger mod packs you will need to upgrade the stock game to 1.5. That being said realism can get you killed so happy sailing on that. If you enjoy playing the German side as I do then this mod list is the best: Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157 OpsMonsun_V705 OMv705_to_V720 OMv720_Patch5 OMEGU_v300 OMEGU_v300_Patch7 OM_Harder_Escort_L2 UBM Missions Popular German Music From The 30´s OM_Pac_Env #1 Real Environment mod install

10-29-13, 06:42 AM	#11
fireftr18 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 2,528 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 0	The tutorial convoy is difficult compared to the base games career convoys. They're much better for practice. __________________ Of all the forms of Martial Arts, Karaoke causes the most pain!

10-29-13, 07:51 AM	#12
Raven Morpheus Machinist's Mate Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 125 Downloads: 143 Uploads: 0	Well I nearly had them just now. Although I was getting torpedoes exploding in the water before reaching the target which was 4000yds away. I'm guessing either I set the range too low or the torpedoes can't go that far. So I thought I'd reload after having saved it when I was reaching position. But now, every time I reload, the ships just start turning towards me as though they instantly spot me whereas I comfortably sat at periscope depth watching them for a minute or so after my save point!! I'll resume my career save and see if I have any better luck (have to find a convoy first) but at this point I'm actually considering going back to SH5 because tracking and taking down a convoy is just so much easier!!

10-29-13, 09:02 AM	#13
Admiral Halsey Best Admiral in the USN Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: USS Enterprise (CV-6) Posts: 1,740 Downloads: 317 Uploads: 0	If your using the Mark 14 torp seeing it explode before hitting the target is normal before mid 1943.

10-30-13, 12:34 AM	#14
magic452 Sea Lord Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Reno Nevada USA Posts: 1,860 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	That school mission is really messed up, for starters the second you start the mission you have already been seen by the escorts, you are far to close to do anything. By this time you should or would be at PD and have all of your firing data figured out. The mission is worthless IMO. Read my post in the link I gave you. Do a War Patrol that starts after mid '43. Find a single ship and get some experience with plotting and intercepts and how to approach a target. You can also patrol around Luzon Strait and find convoys and put what you learned to good use. Once you find a convoy save the game and get some practice on tracking it and how to best approach. Just play the save a few times till you get the hang of it. If you're playing stock there are plenty of targets out there but as opposed to the APO the PTO is a much bigger battlefield and far more interesting. Magic __________________ Reported lost 11 Feb. 1942 Signature by depthtok33l Last edited by magic452; 10-30-13 at 12:49 AM.