Handling of Towed Array in DW

Hawk66 · 08-20-13, 10:27 AM

I'm currently implementing the Towed Array for my coldwarsubsim. The TA as a sensor is pretty clear to me but when I look at the handling in DW it is pretty uncomfortable in terms of 'UI'.

Does anybody know if the handling of a TA in a 688 is realistic in DW?
So, I'm asking myself if not - after the mirror contact was identified - there is way to automatically filter out the mirror sound signal so that it does not clutter the sonar display any longer?

TLAM Strike · 08-20-13, 11:07 AM

I don't know if they do or not, but since it is a digital system it is possible. I know there is a software called "Debrief" that can do it with records of sonar and TMA data after the fact.

Hawk66 · 08-20-13, 11:58 AM

Ok, thanks.

I just implement this feature and make some checks so that the player cannot misuse it if he cannot according to the current situation know what the mirror is...

robdw · 08-22-13, 08:07 PM

Would it not make more sense (might be more difficult to implement?) to allow the user to choose to hide whichever mirror image they want at will. If they pick the wrong one because they haven't figured out which is correct, well too bad for them. Of course there should also be the option to unhide the mirror too. That means you don't have to worry about whether they know the correct one or not and it gives users more control of what's happening on their display.
I've often thought it would be a nice feature that would make sense to have. Currently I have an excel spreadsheet that when I enter OS heading and one of the bearings shows the mirror bearing automatically. Helps a bit with the workload of figuring out what is real and what's mirror.
I guess the one danger might be that you might accidentally mask a 2nd signal that happened to be close to it.

Hawk66 · 08-23-13, 01:22 AM

Yes, In the meantime, I've thought about a similar option:

I just provide a switch in the console, which allows to hide the 'false' bearing line if the operator (player or agent(AI) in the backend) has assigned a tracker to one of the bearings. So if he has chosen the wrong one, he then works with the false, mirror contact.

Anyways when I'm finished with this and some other 1-2 small features, I'll upload the next video so that I can get feedback.

robdw · 08-23-13, 09:48 PM

The challenge with that will be if it's an all or nothing option: if it turns off all mirrors and you get a new contact, how to you assign a tracker to it until you figure out which is the right one (because as soon as you do you lose the mirrored track)? You will then have to remember which are unconfirmed (you would still be able to tell after a turn) but you could make a bad decision on where to go if you had picked the wrong track.

Hawk66 · 08-24-13, 01:48 AM

I see your point but for starters I want to keep it simple. Anyways, there is no need to use the switch - then you have the same behavior as in DW...it is just an option to de-clutter the waterfall display

Pisces · 08-24-13, 05:39 AM

Well, how about a 3-way switch? (for each tracker) Port, Starboard, Both. Let the operator choose. Neither the sensor, nor the operator, has any knowledge beforehand which is the mirror and which is the true contact bearing. The operator can only tell by a steady contact-bearing after the change in course, or (narrowband) confirmation of a different sensor. The TA cannot distinguish if a contact is on port or starboard. The arrival time differences at the sensors along the TA wire are identical if it came from a port or starboard relative angle. The time difference of signal arrival is all that the TA equipment knows. Automating this decision process is cheating the laws of physics.

Only if the TA equipment knows that the sensors on the wire aren't in-line (the wire is curved due to previous turns), and the precise position and orientation of the individual sensors is known, could it theoretically triangulate where the bearing is coming from. But I don't know if real-life TAs are that sophisticated.

Hawk66 · 08-24-13, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pisces

Well, how about a 3-way switch? (for each tracker) Port, Starboard, Both. Let the operator choose. Neither the sensor, nor the operator, has any knowledge beforehand which is the mirror and which is the true contact bearing. The operator can only tell by a steady contact-bearing after the change in course, or (narrowband) confirmation of a different sensor. The TA cannot distinguish if a contact is on port or starboard. The arrival time differences at the sensors along the TA wire are identical if it came from a port or starboard relative angle. The time difference of signal arrival is all that the TA equipment knows. Automating this decision process is cheating the laws of physics.

Good idea! I'll write it in my design document but will not implement it immediately since it is more effort...but for a next iteration I'll have a look.

08-20-13, 10:27 AM	#1
Hawk66 Commodore Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 609 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	Handling of Towed Array in DW I'm currently implementing the Towed Array for my coldwarsubsim. The TA as a sensor is pretty clear to me but when I look at the handling in DW it is pretty uncomfortable in terms of 'UI'. Does anybody know if the handling of a TA in a 688 is realistic in DW? So, I'm asking myself if not - after the mirror contact was identified - there is way to automatically filter out the mirror sound signal so that it does not clutter the sonar display any longer? __________________ Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein

08-20-13, 11:07 AM	#2
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	I don't know if they do or not, but since it is a digital system it is possible. I know there is a software called "Debrief" that can do it with records of sonar and TMA data after the fact. __________________

08-20-13, 11:58 AM	#3
Hawk66 Commodore Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 609 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	Ok, thanks. I just implement this feature and make some checks so that the player cannot misuse it if he cannot according to the current situation know what the mirror is... __________________ Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein

08-23-13, 01:22 AM	#5
Hawk66 Commodore Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 609 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	Yes, In the meantime, I've thought about a similar option: I just provide a switch in the console, which allows to hide the 'false' bearing line if the operator (player or agent(AI) in the backend) has assigned a tracker to one of the bearings. So if he has chosen the wrong one, he then works with the false, mirror contact. Anyways when I'm finished with this and some other 1-2 small features, I'll upload the next video so that I can get feedback. __________________ Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein

08-24-13, 01:48 AM	#7
Hawk66 Commodore Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 609 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	I see your point but for starters I want to keep it simple. Anyways, there is no need to use the switch - then you have the same behavior as in DW...it is just an option to de-clutter the waterfall display __________________ Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein

08-22-13, 08:07 PM	#4
robdw Swabbie Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Would it not make more sense (might be more difficult to implement?) to allow the user to choose to hide whichever mirror image they want at will. If they pick the wrong one because they haven't figured out which is correct, well too bad for them. Of course there should also be the option to unhide the mirror too. That means you don't have to worry about whether they know the correct one or not and it gives users more control of what's happening on their display. I've often thought it would be a nice feature that would make sense to have. Currently I have an excel spreadsheet that when I enter OS heading and one of the bearings shows the mirror bearing automatically. Helps a bit with the workload of figuring out what is real and what's mirror. I guess the one danger might be that you might accidentally mask a 2nd signal that happened to be close to it.

08-23-13, 09:48 PM	#6
robdw Swabbie Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	The challenge with that will be if it's an all or nothing option: if it turns off all mirrors and you get a new contact, how to you assign a tracker to it until you figure out which is the right one (because as soon as you do you lose the mirrored track)? You will then have to remember which are unconfirmed (you would still be able to tell after a turn) but you could make a bad decision on where to go if you had picked the wrong track.

08-24-13, 05:39 AM	#8
Pisces Silent Hunter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: AN9771 Posts: 4,904 Downloads: 304 Uploads: 0	Well, how about a 3-way switch? (for each tracker) Port, Starboard, Both. Let the operator choose. Neither the sensor, nor the operator, has any knowledge beforehand which is the mirror and which is the true contact bearing. The operator can only tell by a steady contact-bearing after the change in course, or (narrowband) confirmation of a different sensor. The TA cannot distinguish if a contact is on port or starboard. The arrival time differences at the sensors along the TA wire are identical if it came from a port or starboard relative angle. The time difference of signal arrival is all that the TA equipment knows. Automating this decision process is cheating the laws of physics. Only if the TA equipment knows that the sensors on the wire aren't in-line (the wire is curved due to previous turns), and the precise position and orientation of the individual sensors is known, could it theoretically triangulate where the bearing is coming from. But I don't know if real-life TAs are that sophisticated.