SH3 Commander confusion

[ntz]

Hello sea devils,

i use SH3+GWX3+SH3cmdr3.2 ..

i'm used to make things harder to yield more fun from there .. i would like to ask for your personal preference and opinion about "Realistic" Vs "Already in SH3" option crew mode and/or current crew fine tunning in sh3cmdr ..

1) is it okay, that for stock crew I can add at the very beggining of the campaign (after first patrol usually still before ww2 started) unlimited amount of promotions and some badges, so I can turn initial 3 hellsmans + 1 watchman to four 3-skill officers each + same with adding skill to each Petty Officer ? How is it meant and what will it do with original concept of campaign, which should be that you receive these promotions and *skills as reward for service ..

2) When I start with "Realistic" crew when starting new campaign in SH3cmdr i have to suffer first mission (usually before ww2 starts as in Aug/1939) with given set of 2 watchmans + 1 repairman and after first mission i can give them all promotions and skills same like described above .. how is this feature meant ? Why I can give Iron Cross to anybody before first encounter ?

3) What do you think and do you use the feature of changing next patrol location as you wish ? Isn't AI making some global tactic decisions like covering with AI controlled captains other areas by some key ? why can single captain select his next mission targets ?


I am confused from things above .. I play with 100% of realism with no god's eye and i really don't understand how are these cheaty things meant in SH3cmdr ..

thanks in advance, daniel

[Pisces]

I can't really comment on 1) and 2),...

but for 3) the grids are simply selected at random out of a small list specific for a Flotilla and time period. (which probably resembled real-life history) There is no tactical or strategic consideration that leads to the decision of which grid to go to. You can choose your own desired grid to go to. Nothing in the game prevents you from going your own way and doing what you please.

[u crank]

Hi Daniel, welcome to SubSim.

Originally Posted by ntz

1) is it okay, that for stock crew I can add at the very beggining of the campaign (after first patrol usually still before ww2 started) unlimited amount of promotions and some badges, so I can turn initial 3 hellsmans + 1 watchman to four 3-skill officers each + same with adding skill to each Petty Officer ? How is it meant and what will it do with original concept of campaign, which should be that you receive these promotions and *skills as reward for service ..

Whether it is okay or not is up to you. The 'original concept of campaign' is not realistic as all crew members would be trained and assigned to certain duties before their first patrol. SH3 Cmd. helps to do that. I always have a short shakedown cruise then assign skills to all my officers and petty officers as I see fit. Promotions and other awards are only given after patrols. The idea of 'skills as reward for service' is again not quite realistic. But of course it is only a sim and it is what you make it.

SH3 Commander is a game enhancing tool I could not do without.

Once again, welcome.

[ntz]

thanks for input ..

i'd really like to encourage someone to comment points 1) and 2) .. what is the best practise for maintaining campaign in some reality close borders in regard of human resources ?

should I then ommit using this feature of sh3cmdr at all ? talking about crew manager .. it's weird indeed to be able to add and save any skills you want to your crew at the beginning of the game ..

i've also noticed, that if you use "Realistic" settings i start before war with 550/600 experienced commander as well as several other sailors having ~200 - 300 exp

probably good compromise would be to use "Realistic" settings and don't use all (or any) allowed promotions and skill adds in there ..

thanks for the comment ..

ntz

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by ntz

1) is it okay, that for stock crew I can add at the very beggining of the campaign (after first patrol usually still before ww2 started) unlimited amount of promotions and some badges, so I can turn initial 3 hellsmans + 1 watchman to four 3-skill officers each + same with adding skill to each Petty Officer ? How is it meant and what will it do with original concept of campaign, which should be that you receive these promotions and *skills as reward for service .

As U Crank said, in real life there is no such thing as an "unqualified" petty officer. It is the qualification that makes him a petty officer in the first place. Skills are not a reward for service. They are a part of a sailor's training. The radioman went to a school to learn those skills, and he may have served on another ship before becoming a submariner. Your "new" radioman may actually have more service experience than you. Giving them skills is more realistic than the way the game does it.

2) When I start with "Realistic" crew when starting new campaign in SH3cmdr i have to suffer first mission (usually before ww2 starts as in Aug/1939) with given set of 2 watchmans + 1 repairman and after first mission i can give them all promotions and skills same like described above .. how is this feature meant ? Why I can give Iron Cross to anybody before first encounter ?

No, it's not realistic to have a bunch of medals before the war even starts. On the other hand the game lets you give a few u-boat badges and one medal per patrol. If you have serious trouble and several crewmen deserve medals, then SH3 Commander becomes very helpful. Yes, you can use it to give out Iron Crosses to everyone, but that's up to you. As Rockin' Robbins once said, "Realism is in how you play, not in the game settings."

Like U Crank, my career starts with a shakedown patrol, which for me involves cruising to an open part of the harbor and then going right back to the dock. I then make sure that every PO has a skill before going on my first real patrol.

3) What do you think and do you use the feature of changing next patrol location as you wish ? Isn't AI making some global tactic decisions like covering with AI controlled captains other areas by some key ? why can single captain select his next mission targets ?

No, in real life the captain didn't select his patrol grid. On the other hand he went to the grid he was assigned and stayed there until further orders, not 24 hours as in the game. Since the game doesn't do that I stay in my assigned grid for a week, and if I don't see anything I roll a die. If I get a '6' I then pretend BdU assigned me a new grid and pick one nearby. Gallivanting all over the ocean because I already know where the easy pickings are.

Commander letting you pick your own grid is neither more nor less realistic than the way the game already does it.

[sublynx]

Originally Posted by ntz

probably good compromise would be to use "Realistic" settings and don't use all (or any) allowed promotions and skill adds in there ..

This is what I do. I designate the petty officers to certain posts even if they don't have the skill badges. After missions I give the skill badges to the guys that have been doing their jobs and pretend they got better by experience. I'm thinking that Naval schools teach you something, but war experience teaches a lot more.

What I would like to see is two sets of skill badges. The first being a "just out of school" badge making the petty officer a bit better than a petty officer without it and then after war patrol experience a second "taught by combat experience" badge making the petty officer a lot better in his task.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by sublynx

What I would like to see is two sets of skill badges. The first being a "just out of school" badge making the petty officer a bit better than a petty officer without it and then after war patrol experience a second "taught by combat experience" badge making the petty officer a lot better in his task.

That's a good idea. The reality, at least for me, was that after Radio school I was still just a Seaman Second Class, working under a petty officer. I was considered a radioman and nothing else, but I still had to progress through Seaman First to Radioman Third Class, so I wasn't a PO but I was considered "qualified".

[sublynx]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

That's a good idea. The reality, at least for me, was that after Radio school I was still just a Seaman Second Class, working under a petty officer. I was considered a radioman and nothing else, but I still had to progress through Seaman First to Radioman Third Class, so I wasn't a PO but I was considered "qualified".

That reminds me about an interview of a japanese bonsai tree master. When he started training, for the first 2 years he wasn't even allowed to touch the bonsai trees

Anyways hopefully somebody with some modding interest reads this as I think this might be modded in relatively easily.

[ntz]

thanks for your replies

btw, someone here noted the fact, that PO has his rank because of he's qualified to maintain some concrete things better than other .. i'd not follow this 100% .. PO without skill still can be assigned to any post in submarine and he does his job slightly better than normal sailor .. i've read there that some captains use sh3cmdr and assigns some skill to each PO very early at the campaign .. well, i'd rather assign slowly skills to my POs as they accumulate real experience at sea ..

ofc, that if vanilla game gives you one skill per patrol it is not optimal, hence say after 10 patrols everyone on the board has relatively same level of experience, so i'd believe, that assigning skills could be made "more groupy" after several missions ..

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

"Realism is in how you play, not in the game settings."

yeah, good point

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by ntz

yeah, good point

But was originally posted by Rockin' Robbins, not me. I just quoted him.

[irish1958]

Skill is related to the complexity of the task, the amount of training needed to master the task and the genetic and physical makeup of the individual.
As an example, consider the skill needed to drive a nail with a hammer. For most people, it is easy to learn and master and having twenty years experience will not improve your performance.
A newly commissioned boat will not have an unskilled crew. And a seasoned boat will have a number of unskilled personnel.
With this reasoning, I assign every crew member (via SH3CMDR) a station, skill level and decorations at the onset of a career. This allows me to keep the same crew at the same station through the mission, as in real life.
I suspect Sailor Steve spent most of his time in communications and not in the engine room (although he might have spent a bit of time in the galley pealing potatoes on KP duty).

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by ntz

btw, someone here noted the fact, that PO has his rank because of he's qualified to maintain some concrete things better than other .. i'd not follow this 100% .. PO without skill still can be assigned to any post in submarine and he does his job slightly better than normal sailor .. i've read there that some captains use sh3cmdr and assigns some skill to each PO very early at the campaign .. well, i'd rather assign slowly skills to my POs as they accumulate real experience at sea ..

I tried to explain the reality. I guess I didn't do it too well.

A first-class petty officer is more skilled than a third-class petty officer. That said, there is no such thing as a petty officer with no skills at all. Being qualified in the job is what makes him a petty officer in the first place. Every petty officer should have a skill right from the start. That is realistic. A PO with no skill is not realistic. A sailor with no skills is not a petty officer.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by irish1958

I suspect Sailor Steve spent most of his time in communications and not in the engine room (although he might have spent a bit of time in the galley pealing potatoes on KP duty).

I never had to peel potatoes, believe it or not. I did, however, spend one month as what they call a Mess Cook, which is a fancy name for a table-cleaner and dishwasher. I also got assigned to chip paint in compartments needing repainting, when things were slow.

[Steve Gad]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

.... my career starts with a shakedown patrol, which for me involves cruising to an open part of the harbour and then going right back to the dock. I then make sure that every PO has a skill before going on my first real patrol.

.

I hadn't realised that was possible. What I do to get decent crew, is to go to the boat outfitting screen, then right back to the barracks and I will find crew with 200 or so renown waiting - if renown allows of course.

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by Steve Gad

I hadn't realised that was possible. What I do to get decent crew, is to go to the boat outfitting screen, then right back to the barracks and I will find crew with 200 or so renown waiting - if renown allows of course.

There's this bug with renown awarded during your first patrol. If you modify anything to your boat before the first patrol, you'll likely loose the renown gained during it. So that includes crew changes. Been there, done that.