Walter Lacqueur on Europe's decline

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-912837.html

SPIEGEL: Mr. Laqueur, you experienced Europe and the Europeans in the best and the worst of times. Historical hot spots and the stations of your personal biography were closely and sometimes dramatically intertwined. Which conclusions have you reached today, at the advanced age of 92?

Laqueur: I became a historian of the postwar era in Europe, but the Europe I knew no longer exists. My book "Out of the Ruins of Europe," published in 1970, ended with an optimistic assessment of the future. Later, in 2008, "The Last Days of Europe: Epitaph for an Old Continent" was published. I returned to the subject in my latest book, "After the Fall: The End of the European Dream and the Decline of a Continent." The sequence of titles probably says it all.

[Oberon]

I wonder if there is any nation on this Earth at the moment with a free press that does not have some entity in it postulating that the nation is in decline.

[Skybird]

What goes up, must come down, and whatever empire there ever has been, has finally fallen. Before the present it were decades of boasting that everything is in climb, is raising, is getting better, is growing forever.

Nothing is forever. The day not of the Triffids but the Bills gets closer. Our current society has never been designed to be lasting and to be sustainable. It always maximised the short-termed spike and short-living sensation at the cost of the long-lasting perspective. It always spent more than it could afford, and built no reserves for bad times that inevitably sooner or later come to any society as well. It always wanted tot to maintain, but to grow, endlessly, and it designed itself to even depend on growing endlessly - which is a lethal verdict, of course.

Everything since 1945 has just been seen as an endless party with all drinks for free.

[Oberon]

It's a cycle, of course the dominance of the west is going to fall, nothing lasts forever, but it doesn't necessarily equate to the sort of blood, death and destruction that some people seem to think it will. Present article excluded, and I note at the end of the article that at the end of the 19th century many nations feared their decline, France for example, after her defeats in the 1870s, rose up again in strength by the 1890s.
Yes, we are in decline, no it's not terminal nor will it last forever. Will we delude ourselves and spend freely in the next boom? Probably, yes, since we rarely seem to learn, but that is the nature of the beast.

[em2nought]

The wealth squandered by western gov'ts in the name of the people truly boggles the mind. You'd think that only drunken sailors ran for office.

[Armistead]

The US won't be far behind, seems China and India will be the powers of the future.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Armistead

The US won't be far behind, seems China and India will be the powers of the future.

Better start boot licking are new Masters before everyone else gets on the act.

The Sun is setting in the West & rising in the East.


My opinion of the UK is this...It's going to get worst people! We are now in a fiat money bubble with a good helping of mind control media telling us we are getting better. No we are not, Mr Ponzi Osbourn's housing scheme is a ticking bomb. Are debt is going up and up...hey we can always print more fiat money can't we Mr Mark Carney our new Bank of England Governor.

The man from Goldman Sachs he say.."yes".

[Catfish]

No problem, a big war will solve all problems.
Some people say that "he who does not know history is damned to relive it", i just say that people die too early, and the young ones always make all mistakes again.
No one ever learned from history.


maybe (!) by Tucholsky:


Wenn die Börsenkurse fallen,
regt sich Kummer fast bei allen,
aber manche blühen auf:
Ihr Rezept heißt Leerverkauf.

Keck verhökern diese Knaben
Dinge, die sie gar nicht haben,
treten selbst den Absturz los,
den sie brauchen - echt famos!

Leichter noch bei solchen Taten
tun sie sich mit Derivaten:
Wenn Papier den Wert frisiert,
wird die Wirkung potenziert.

Wenn in Folge Banken krachen,
haben Sparer nichts zu lachen,
und die Hypothek aufs Haus
heißt, Bewohner müssen raus.

Trifft's hingegen große Banken,
kommt die ganze Welt ins Wanken -
auch die Spekulantenbrut
zittert jetzt um Hab und Gut!!

Soll man das System gefährden?
Da muss eingeschritten werden:
Der Gewinn, der bleibt privat,
die Verluste kauft der Staat.

Dazu braucht der Staat Kredite,
und das bringt erneut Profite,
hat man doch in jenem Land
die Regierung in der Hand.

Für die Zechen dieser Frechen
hat der Kleine Mann zu blechen
und - das ist das Feine ja -
nicht nur in Amerika!

Und wenn Kurse wieder steigen,
fängt von vorne an der Reigen -
ist halt Umverteilung pur,
stets in eine Richtung nur.

Aber sollten sich die Massen
das mal nimmer bieten lassen,
ist der Ausweg längst bedacht:
Dann wird bisschen Krieg gemacht.



English translation - not quite that good, but you get the meaning:


When stock markets fall,
All are moved to grief,
For some the hope remains, however--
Short selling: their relief

What they do not own,
These bold knaves take and sell,
To start the crash that they require,
Isn't this so swell!

Easier still than that--
Derivatives, they juggle round,
For when the paper boosts its value,
Benefits compound.

If this leads to banks collapsing,
For savers it's no laughing matter.
For the mortage on their houses,
Residents must scatter.

But if this hits the larger banks,
The whole world starts to quake-
In fear for their possessions,
The spawn of gamblers start to shake.

Action must be taken,
We must protect the system's fate--
The profits will be kept in private,
The debts paid by the state.

For this we must have public bonds,
The profits will be so much!
For knaves in every land do have,
The governments in their own clutch.

For these rascals' debts,
The little guy must pay,
And -it gets better yet-
Not just in USA!

And should the market rise again,
The dance begins anew.
This is simply redistribution,
The direction is just askew.

But if the masses rise,
And will not take it any more,
The solution is quite simple:
We start a little war!



It is meanwhile doubted that it is from Tucholsky, but bet I can better say squirrel, than americans say Tucholsky

[the_tyrant]

Always scare tactics saying that the sky is falling to draw clicks.

You know, I read an article this morning in the Chinese press saying the online gaming is destroying the country!


Truth is, Europeans arguably live more "relaxed" and comfortable than the rest of us. It is only fair for your standard of living to drop 30% to meet the rest of us!

Interesting thread by skybird this.

I read a review on Amazon.com to a book purchased concerning WW1 and WW2, this fella describe the two wars as civil wars between Europeans. He declared that Europe has never recovered from the two wars and are the main reason for the decline.

[August]

Europeans, aside from the British are the most negative group of nancy boys I have ever seen.

Buck up Guys!

After all:

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

maybe (!) by Tucholsky:

(...)

It is meanwhile doubted that it is from Tucholsky, but bet I can better say squirrel, than americans say Tucholsky

It's not by Tucholsky, but a guy named Richard Kerschhofer alias Pannonicus.

[Penguin]

To me, Laqueur shows a trait which historians should avoid: looking at history through his own socio-economical and political spectacles. He completely leaves out half of Europe's population, basically the whole East. I wonder how many folks from Prague would prefer to party like it's 1968. This shows also in his preferred choice of eopoche. Yeah, living at the fin de siecle in Paris would mean admiring the Tour D'Eiffel – while you are busy on your way back from a 12h workday avoiding the crap and corpses on the streets, as this has been the reality for the common people back in the days.

This being said, much of the frustration Euros have comes from the Leviathan-like nature of the beast EU. It started as an economic union and kept this nature till today. A lack of democratic praticipation plus centralism adds towards this feeling of alienation. I guess most people here have nothing against living peacefully with their neighboring nations, but a union which values its currency more than its citizens can't expect to win hearts and minds of the latter.

The question if Europe should develop its own version of the Monroe Doctrine or engage itself in conflicts all over the world is still out there. Personally, I'm in favour of the first, with some very limited exceptions.

Originally Posted by August

Europeans, aside from the British are the most negative group of nancy boys I have ever seen.

- just as Americans are uneducated, Stetson-wearing fatso Palin worshippers, Africans are lazy lying around in the sun, when they're not busy killing each other, East Asians are mindless work drones and Aussies are too drunk to realize in what hellish place they live – surrounded by the deadliest of each species in the animal kingdom. Don't get me even started on those crazy Indians or Middle Easterners with all their funny religious stuff.

Nah man, you're totally wrong in your assumptions about Europe: the Brits are the mostest negative folks here – and they have the weather and food to support this!

[August]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Nah man, you're totally wrong in your assumptions about Europe

I of course bow to your far greater firsthand experience but going by many of the Germans on this forum i'm starting to wonder how you all manage to get through the day.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Penguin

Nah man, you're totally wrong in your assumptions about Europe: the Brits are the mostest negative folks here – and they have the weather and food to support this!

Hey we had a long heat wave of course we are cranky, you try going a month without bonking.

As for the food...

Well to honest food most part every where is full of junk we all could do without. Care for a Black pudding?