Are you willing?

[GoldenRivet]

Simple, black and white, unloaded yes or no question as presented by public school to children

American's: Are you willing to give up some of your constitutional rights in order to feel more secure?

[Stealhead]

Crap I hit yes and meant no.Recount!!!! It should as of right now be 100% no.

If only Americans vote it is going be majority no anyway hell if everyone votes it will still be mainly no I'd wager.

I would not willingly give up any right to feel "safer" everyone was "safe" in the book "1984".

[Father Goose]

Don't worry Stealhead. The same thing happened to a lot of folks in the last presidential election.

Back on topic:
'Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.' Benjamin Franklin, 'Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor,' November 11, 1755."

[Stealhead]

That is the same thing the losing side says after every election by my count that has happened 55 times just counting primary presidential elections.

I volunteered during the 2008 election trust me they get counted correctly and people get varied properly I sat there a did it.

[Red October1984]

NO!

None of my rights will be given up because they are RIGHTS!

Maybe we've forgotten the definition of that word....

[Father Goose]

Originally Posted by Stealhead

That is the same thing the losing side says after every election by my count that has happened 55 times just counting primary presidential elections.

I volunteered during the 2008 election trust me they get counted correctly and people get varied properly I sat there a did it.

Oh, I'm sorry, I just noticed you're from Florida. That explains it all.

[Red October1984]

Originally Posted by Father Goose

Oh, I'm sorry, I just noticed you're from Florida. That explains it all.

Stealhead, we're going to have to recount your posts...

[CCIP]

I have little respect for people who stand on a soapbox and loudly proclaim "Liberty or death!", having never had to make that choice and never facing anything remotely approximating that choice. You are no more qualified to judge people making that choice than a crayon-drawing 4-year-old. It's easy to look down on people who've made that choice - of course, they're cowards who deserve nothing! Let them be dead in the pyre of history, those traitors to great human ideals! It's a black-and-white world after all.

I was born in the USSR. I think that tells you something about where my view comes from. Live in a place where your safety is actually legitimately threatened, or worse, when the real choice is the safety of your family, and then come back and be 100% confident in your answer. But I seriously don't buy this stuff for even a second. It's a historical fact that when they come after you and your loved ones, no forum poll will change the fact that the overwhelming majority will make the choice to save what's dear to them. And no amount of self-righteousness and ego-pumping will make you right and them wrong. You have no right to look down on people who love life and love their family, and would give up anything and everything to preserve them.

History is a complicated thing and people should strive for ideals, but not through black/white proclamations that divide people into humans and less-than-humans.

[magic452]

With all do respect, and I do mean that, nobody said anything about looking down on anybody. A simple poll nothing more and isn't that what Freedom, Liberty and Democratic are all about.

Americans have been standing up for Liberty for over 200 hundred years and many thousands have died because of it. We have paid our blood and treasure many times already and will do so again if necessary.

Don't forget that it was an American that said " Give me Liberty or give me death" and he wasn't standing on a soapbox but rather a gallows at the time.

People start giving up their "Liberty" and it's possible we may be put into the position you described and experienced.

What got your people into that position in the first place was a government that got too powerful. There are many Americans that will not let that happen here. Don't underestimate us.

I lived the entire Cold War, albeit from the other side of the coin but I nor anybody that I knew ever looked down on the people of Russia. Some times you got to do what you got to do to survive. What we don't want to see here is us being put into that position in the first place and one way that can happen is to start giving up your rights a little at a time.

Look at the Second Amendment gun thread and also put it together with the one on the IRS looking at your E Mails without warrants, the Fourth Amendment. A little bit at a time.

If the experience of the Russian people says one thing to the people of the US it is don't let that happen here. A little bit at a time.

I'll come down from my soapbox now.

Magic

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by magic452

Americans have been standing up for Liberty for over 200 hundred years and many thousands have died because of it. We have paid our blood and treasure many times already and will do so again if necessary.

That's all well and good, but mostly theory as long as you (generic, not you personally) don't have to make the choice between liberty and death yourself. And that's what I think CCIP was pointing out. Your ancestors doing something does not give any validity to you in such case. Much like my ancestors fighting in Winter war don't give me any credit to use patriotic rhetoric about what I would or wouldn't do if another war with Russia broke out.

I have no doubt that should the situation arise, many people would still do as they said they would when it was only theoretical. But CCIP's point is still very valid: it's easier to say than do when you have something as dear as your family or your own life at stake.

[magic452]

You totally missed the point of my post. A little bit at a time.
You don't get there if you don't let them take your rights away in the first place.

I'm not talking about just my ancestors but my contemporaries and those that are doing so today. What our ancestors did is very relevant to what we as Americans would do today, it's our heritage just as The Winters War is yours, it would influence what you would do.

What CCIP posted is very valid for him and the Russian people at the time. The situation was already out of control for many years and there was little they could do about it. Dieing for a slogan would not be the best way to protect your family, their rights and liberty were lost a long time ago. What I'm saying is that there are those of us that will fight to protect out liberty not necessarily with guns but with whatever action we can, even if it starts with posting in some forum thread. If it came to guns there are many that would go that way if necessary to prevent what happened in Russia from happening here. You stand on the shoulders of those that came before you and for myself personally I would do what ever I could to protect my family from going through anything like what happened in Russia or many other places in the world. I've gotten my butt handed to me on more than one occasion for standing up for what I thought was right so it wouldn't be the first time.

Those who ignore history are doom to repeat it.

Nearly a hundred years ago the Russian people did stand up for their rights and liberty regrettably it didn't turn out so good, the replacement government was worse than the one they had.

While it's true that Americans haven't fought our government for some 150 years but we have done so twice in the past. The past can and often does repeat itself.

Magic

[mapuc]

Be Careful, be very careful, this is nothing more that a manipulative question.

Markus

[Skybird]

Suggestive phrasing. Answering to poll denied.

It is polls with simpliified formulas like this that do not mean to assess opinions at all, but that try to manipulate them.

In school contexts, may it be "polls", may it be text of school books, it is called brainwashing.

[Oberon]

I didn't answer since I'm not American, but I think the Ben Franklin quote says it best.

However, if the question is put to Americans, it will not be done in that way, it will be done in ways like the PATRIOT act, as a knee-jerk response to a major incident, and the common person will be told by both government and media alike that it is a good thing.

What was that Goering quote:

Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

Never thought I would agree about the color of **** with that guy, but hell did he hit the nails head.
Leaving aside who he was and concentrating on what was said... This little strategy seems to work just fine.