German rifles are hot

[Skybird]

especially the assault rifle G36. As German media repeatedly reported now over the past weeks, the rifle gets easily very hot - and then (according to internal tests by the Bundeswehr with 89 rifles so far) the spreading of bullets becomes so wide that even at 200 meters range the effective combating against enemies is no longer possible. Ongoing, longer fire fights are impossible with this rifle, it is said. The BW says operations in such situations were seriously in jeopardy.

Now I think that any rifle, pistol, gun becomes hot when firing many rounds in a short period of time.

I wonder to what degree other contemporary assault rifles are effected by this? Anyone knowing what the standards are?

[CaptainHaplo]

So are some german chicks.....

I prefer the chicks hot - over here "hot" can also mean stolen, and I prefer to avoid dealing with stolen firearms..

Still - I get your point and would have to say - totally sweet!

To answer - yes a firearm gets hot. Friction in the barrel and all that.
You can melt the barrel of any firearm if its fired too much. It really depends on the number of rounds that it takes before you start having issues and how rapidly those rounds went downrange.
An M16 for example, on auto (the early ones had a setting for such) can chew through rounds like nobody's business. With adequate magazines and a skilled operator, you could make the thing inop. But that takes a while.
I suspect that with the # of issues they have seen, the problem is arising too quickly.

Do you have a link that shows how many rounds and in what time frame this is occuring?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Do you have a link that shows how many rounds and in what time frame this is occuring?

So far not. Just the generel media releases. But the BW is not happy and says the problem arises with all 89 rifles they had test runs with. And they rate - internally - ongoing firefights that do not end quickly as practically non-doable with this rifle, as described above. The problems internally are described to be of "utmost relevance for military operations". If the weapon is not allowed to cool down after a few triple salves or a sequence of rapid single fire shots, it can break down completely.

I do not know if there have been complaints filed from troops in Afghanistan. But the BW avoids scenarios with ongoing, long-lasting exchanges of fire.

If the enemy cooperates - and there lies the problem.

The G36 is in very high demand all around the world, the rifle is considered to be extremely sexy. I wonder why they realised the problems not earlier. Or did they, and the message just was hidden?

[antikristuseke]

According to an aquaintance on mine in ESTSOF who also use a G36 variant, the problem occurse only when the rifle is put into service in a role that should be filled by an LMG and overheating is a moot issue if proper triger discipline is maintained by troops.

Talking with some other friends who are either just active duty or former members of EDF who have come into contact with the G36 its pretty much the same thing. None of them had noticed the G36 overheating any more than the Galil's our regular troops are issed with and that the whole issue is more than likely a media generated issue based on very little.

Ofcourse my post is nothing but anecdotal, but meh.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

the whole issue is more than likely a media generated issue based on very little.

While the Bild has been capütured the story today or yesterday, the first report was done three weeks ago in FOCUS and Der Spiegel. Also,m they base on internal papers they gained poessession of, by the BW, which as I said, rates the problem as "of utmost relevance for combat operations".

[Catfish]

I really think those Kalashnikovs are better, tested hot and cold and battered for precision:

http://englishrussia.com/2012/04/22/...guns-are-made/

or the israelian UZI.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

According to an aquaintance on mine in ESTSOF who also use a G36 variant, the problem occurse only when the rifle is put into service in a role that should be filled by an LMG and overheating is a moot issue if proper triger discipline is maintained by troops.

Talking with some other friends who are either just active duty or former members of EDF who have come into contact with the G36 its pretty much the same thing. None of them had noticed the G36 overheating any more than the Galil's our regular troops are issed with and that the whole issue is more than likely a media generated issue based on very little.

^This.
I call bull on the article.
When I was in the Bundeswehr in July 2001 we were the first draftees to get the G36. They came straight from the H&K factories and where not calibrated (once you had figured out where to aim you would still hit almost with every shot though). When we did some shooting where the score for each soldier counted 4 rifles where calibrated by the NCOs and were used by the whole platoon (roughly 30men). We did plenty of shooting with just these 4 rifles and I don't recall any issues with them.

[Skybird]

I googled a bit and skimmed some blogs and forums.

The temperature problem arises after the third cartridge has been emptied in ongoing single shot scenarios. The weapon then creates a spread of 1.20 meters at 100 meters distance. Do not know if that is much or little, I have no expereince with these things.

The rifle is said to have a very good manufacturing quality and very good sights, but the precision beyond 200-300 meters in general suffers due to the light-weighted ammunition the BW fields for it.

The problem of heated weapons seems to be focussed not on the barrel itself, but due to the fact that while the barrel is metal, major parts of the frame are made of polymer components. Heat from the barrel cannot be transported away from the barrel into other metal parts, the plastic in parts block that heat transportation, or does not transport it as good as metal. Some people referred to other weapons made with plenty of plastic and used in foreign militaries also suffer from heat transportation problems.

It seems to be that the more plastic is used, the more problems with heat show up. An assault rifle certainly is not to be used like a LMG or MMG, however, that you need to fire two or three magazines in single fire when being in a war is something one should take into account as a possible and likely scenario.

I also found media reports quoting H&K that long lasting firefights were never a design criterion for the weapon.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Do you have a link that shows how many rounds and in what time frame this is occuring?

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutsc...825030,00.html (German only)
I remember having read it on Spiegel online, though I didn't pay too much attention as the article was published on April 1st and it just states basic firearm knwledge.
It says that after several hundred shots in quick single fire or short bursts the barrel gets so hot that the probability to hit a target on 300m gets reduced to 1/3 (compared to a cold barrel I guess).
So the official German ROE advice to let the barrel cool down till it's "handwarm".
I can't think of any assault rifle which doesn't has this problem if you rapidly fire hundreds of shots.

The Bundeswehr in Afghanistan also uses a similar firefight doctrine as the US: pin down the enemy untill the cavalry arrives, so overheating might become a problem if you use an assault rifle in the role of a support gun. However this task should usually be fulfilled by the MG3 - or the LMG (MG4) which is still only sparely available, not sure how common the use of the latter is in Afghanistan.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Penguin

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutsc...825030,00.html (German only)
I remember having read it on Spiegel online, though I didn't pay too much attention as the article was published on April 1st and it just states basic firearm knwledge.
It says that after several hundred shots in quick single fire or short bursts the barrel gets so hot that the probability to hit a target on 300m gets reduced to 1/3 (compared to a cold barrel I guess).
So the official German ROE advice to let the barrel cool down till it's "handwarm".
I can't think of any assault rifle which doesn't has this problem if you rapidly fire hundreds of shots.

I had that news but did not post it because it gives no numbers that Haplo wanted. Whether "several hundred shots" is written in the BW paper or by a journalist trying to formulate a round and juicy sentence, is unclear.

Again, today's news reports quote the BW with hayving itnernally written in a report that the problems are of "utmost relevance for combat operations". I think you do not use such a formulation if the problem is a non-issue.

3 standard magazines for the G36 hold 90 rounds - almost the "hundred" the Spiegel report mentions, though not in plural, but singular.

[Jimbuna]

It sure is unusual for the Germans to have such issues, they usually manufacture good/sound weapons.

[Rockstar]

Just a guess but when I see this stuff like this in the media. Its to stir up government and or public support for additional military spending. Maybe somebody else wants in on the action. Id bet a competing arms manufacturer or exporter is probably the source of this bad press. Either that it really is a piece of junk.

[MH]

Modern assault rifles are not designed for automatic fire so if the the issue occurs when firing in controlled manner then i would say the gun must have design flaw.
In particular if its matter of 100 rounds but yeah it can get very hot.


MG's with their relatively heavy design usually have changeable barrels but still operators are toughed to shoot in relatively controlled way as well while switching barrels under combat situations.
Suppressive fire is not necessary about emptying all ammo supply in 5 minutes.

When i got to shoot MG i remember changing barrels in range of 250-500 bullets and sometimes colling the gun with drinking water to keep it going.
That is when intensivly shooting in long or short burst.
Or sniping long range with the same 7.62 Belgian MAG.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I had that news but did not post it because it gives no numbers that Haplo wanted. Whether "several hundred shots" is written in the BW paper or by a journalist trying to formulate a round and juicy sentence, is unclear.

Again, today's news reports quote the BW with hayving itnernally written in a report that the problems are of "utmost relevance for combat operations". I think you do not use such a formulation if the problem is a non-issue.

3 standard magazines for the G36 hold 90 rounds - almost the "hundred" the Spiegel report mentions, though not in plural, but singular.

The Spiegel article says:

Nach mehreren hundert Schuss wird der Lauf der Waffe so heiß, dass auf 300 Meter Entfernung die Trefferwahrscheinlichkeit auf ein Drittel sinkt. Das stellte sich nach Informationen des SPIEGEL bei Untersuchungen der Bundeswehr heraus.

The "das" from the last sentence refers to the previous sentence, so it doesn't look like the journalist invented something but refers to the Bundeswehr investigation. Talking about several hundred shots, also leads to the assumption that we are talking about at least 300 shots (mehrere is at least 3). This would add up to at least 10 magazines, which is also the ammo capacity an infantry soldier would normally carry.
I would love it when journalists at least provide a link or a scan of the original sources, today's Focus article from also lacks this...

Originally Posted by MH

When i got to shoot MG i remember changing barrels in range of 250-500 bullets and sometimes colling the gun with drinking water to keep it going.
That is when intensivly shooting in long or short burst.

Well, there is also the unofficial Bundeswehr field doctrine to urinate on the MG's barrel if you lack water or a spare barrel...

[CptSimFreak]

news - "This just in - detonation causes heat!"

people - "we are dooooooomed!"

facepalm