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#1 |
Silent Hunter
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![]() There was some discussion in the thread TMO fuel usage at 0 knots, and this lead to the question of which is better, sitting still or cruising around to look for targets. This got me to thinking about it a little more deeply, so I did some math.... |
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#2 |
Weps
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I totally see the point you are trying to make. I personally think that if the target is within feasible sailing distance, and you're not nearing the point of no return on your fuel level, then making a solid dash for attack position would be well worth the extra go juice.
I personally find that galavanting around at optimal cruise speed on the surface on a search course is the best way to increase odds at running into something. While surfaced and cruising around, you're covering way more square area in a shorter amount of time than putsing around submerged with the hydrophones. Granted your watch crew may have a detection radius much smaller than your hydrophones, but the larger area you can cover on the surface more than makes up for lack of spotting radius. When you finally equip radar, surfaced patrol is undoubtedly the best method, as radar will out range both eyeballs and hydrophone alike. Then of course there's your contact reports to go off of. All in all it's a patrol just to see what's out there, and sometimes there is nothing. Historically many subs went out on patrol for months only to see miles of empty ocean. I suppose this is why they call it hunting and not killing right? heh ![]() Since we're on this subject of patrols and what not, would you have any suggestions as to plotting accurate speed readings? The stadimeter stopwatch icon seems to give me poor estimates, and the measuring tools have a built-in error margin that increases with distance. There's gotta be a way..... ![]() |
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#3 | |
Sea Lord
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Edit I just read in another post that you don't want to use map contacts so the following is not for you. Maybe will help someone else. ![]() Playing with map contacts on just have your sonar man track closest contact and then mark your X at the end of the bearing line. For a convoy you'll have to pick a target and follow it yourself. That range is pretty accurate and you can plot course and get speed by the three minute rule. I do 3, 6 and 9 minutes and get a very accurate speed and course. The three minute rule; for radar or sonar contacts wait till the target updates (20 seconds for sonar, 30 seconds for radar). When it updates place an X on the target or the end of the sonar line. Start the stopwatch. Wait 3 minutes (3.25 minutes for metric) and mark another X when the target is updated. The distance between the Xs in yards divided by 100 will equal the target speed. 500 yds = 5 knots, 1000 yds = 10 knots. Do this three times and you'll have an very good target course and speed. Take the ruler and turn on tool helper and you get a compass rose, place the center of the rose on the target course line and read the number closest to the target. That is the target heading in degrees. remember this number. Go to the peri screen and first turn on the PK. Next go to the data input dials and input speed and sent to PK. Third go to the AoB dial and turn the dial to the side of the target you will shoot at, Starboard or Port. Turn the dial a few degrees and send to PK and when you do you'll see the top dial on the left side move and the bow of the target will point to the ring of numbers on the outside of the dial. Those numbers are the target course in degrees (4=40°, 9=90°,etc.) Just turn the AoB dial till the bow of the target ship points to the course you measured on the map. Once the target lines up with that course send to PK. You now have a very good AoB and the PK will keep this for you as long as the target holds course and speed. You now have two thirds of your firing solution and you haven't even seen the target yet. A couple of good steadimeter readings to get range/bearing and you're all set. Check the firing solution on the attack map and make any last minute adjustments. This is called killing. Magic
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Reported lost 11 Feb. 1942 Signature by depthtok33l Last edited by magic452; 02-02-12 at 12:27 AM. |
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#4 |
Sea Lord
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I only use a dynamic search even from Pearl and refueling at Midway. I have seldom had any real problem with fuel limiting my patrols. I run out of fish long before fuel becomes a concern. Once I hit very heavy weather all the way back to Midway and just did make it. I usually port in Fremantal or Brisbane and fuel is not any concern at all.
With sonar only I set up a patrol pattern with each leg about 10 nautical miles and do a manual sonar sweep at the end of each leg, I'll wrap the search around the end of each leg to cover my 6. That's one sweep every hour at 10 knots. You cover the most area and find the most targets. Once you have radar sitting still makes no sense at all. I don't think I've ever had any patrol last more than 35 or 40 days. Magic
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Reported lost 11 Feb. 1942 Signature by depthtok33l |
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#5 | ||
Silent Hunter
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Perhaps this wasn't clear from my OP, but I consider there is a BIG difference between using fuel to pursue a known contact, and using fuel to cruise around aimlessly. I think most, if not all, skippers would have used almost any amount of fuel to attack a definate target. Also, I should clearify what I mean by a 'static search'. In my example, I allowed for 20 nm movement each night. ( O'Kane mentions this as a safeguard, in case they had been spotted by an aircraft and the enemy was routing ships around their position. Maybe I'm the only one who reads O'Kane. Quote:
It is not the square area, but the radius that is important. If you can see 5 nm and you detect X % of ships transiting the area, a 10 nm visibility will allow you to detect 2X %,(not 4X %). This may seem counter-intuitive, but if you diagram it, you will see it is true. |
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#6 |
Rear Admiral
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The formula probably has more bearing historically than it does in game. Course he may have readjusted fuel for 2.5, I'm still playing 2.2 where fuel really isn't an issue.
Even before that fuel has never been an issue, stay in shipping lanes and the traffic will come. |
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#7 |
Sea Lord
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Just a few thoughts.
If I remember right you wouldn't get a mission to Luzon from Pearl via Midway. You would go to Japanese home waters that are closer so you have more fuel for patrolling. This would hold for both methods but with the static patrol the extra fuel would do you much good because you are already staying out 60 days. I can only think of a single time I've spent anything near 1000 nm in pursuit and evasion. I chased a fast TF in heavy weather at flank speed for something like 200 nm. Even at that I RTB for torpedoes not fuel, I had one left. I was out of Brisbane so fuel wasn't a real factor. Safety/weather allowance of 1000 nm. seems rather excessive. So in my experience I have a lot more fuel than you are allocating for patrolling. I can't think of a single time I patrolled for only 8 days, it just hasn't happened. 31 ships in 31 days of paroling. Nice if you can sink 31 ships with only 24 torpedoes. In my experience two fish for every target and some times three. dynamic search = 12.4, two torpedoes per ship = 24+ torpedoes. A static search will net you 12 ships at best in 12 days or more patrolling and you RTB for lack of fish and fuel is no factor. I've gone many a day without seeing anything at 10 knots and that is covering 220 nm. more than a static search would and that's at 0.49% higher rate. The idea is to sink enemy shipping not stay on patrol as long as possible. The only time a static search would be of any real value is if you are assigned to patrol the entrance of a major port, a choke point or a mission to the Sea of Japan and even at that I think a dynamic search would be more productive. These areas are patrolled by aricraft and you can get down much faster at 10 knots than you can at zero. What O'Kane did or didn't do has little relevance to playing this game. Things just don't work like they did in real life. Where do you get that PR figure? 1.0 verses 1.49 at 10 knots. I don't patrol perpendicular to a shipping lane but rather zig zag along it's length. #3 With a dynamic search you will leave that shipping desert just by the fact you are moving and patrolling the biggest possible area. With a static search you leave that desert 20nm. a day or the the whole fuel thing falls apart. There are lots of shipping deserts out there and you go where you are sent. If you're playing by the book you do your patrol and call in for another mission, can get sent to many shipping deserts this way. Anyway for my torpedoes I'll patrol at 10 knots and take my chances. Magic
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Reported lost 11 Feb. 1942 Signature by depthtok33l |
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#8 |
Navy Seal
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I fully agree with Magic your duty is destroy enemy shipping therefore one should use the tools at hand to maximum effect by staying in one spot your are adding the Japanese because now they just need to have the poor luck to come to you by being mobile they now must deal with the bad luck of being within 200 miles of you.I think like a tiger each tiger has a large bit of land that is his and he roams it constantly.
Considering that all of the most successful US Navy submarine captains all firmly believed in actively patrolling or "dynamically" searching it seems to me that it is the best method.Why sit in one spot and wait when you are very likely missing something 30 miles away that is not headed in your direction.I have never had fuel consumption issues myself with various versions of the game even if having to leave a dry area.I would say in most cases performing an active search in the typical "patrol this area for X hours" and covering a 100-120 miles radius I very rarely wind up not finding a ship or ships often I will find a convoy attack it and move on and wind up finding and hitting another convoy 40 or 50 miles and few hours searching later.Seems to me by sitting in one spot you are greatly lowering the odds of finding a ship unless you knew for certain that something was going to pass your position which in most SH4 missions you do not.I find a known lane and go hunting.If you ever read "Thunder Below" by Gene Fluckey you will be firmly convinced how much more effective it is to actively search but all the successful skipper where like minded they would have felt that being static and conserving fuel would be counter productive to searching the greatest area and therefore increasing your of finding ships which of course is the primary mission to seek out and destroy enemy shipping. Last edited by Stealhead; 02-02-12 at 03:21 PM. |
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#9 | |
Silent Hunter
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I did intend this more for historical interest than as being essential for SH. People seem to either have a hard time understanding the math or just don't want to change their prefered game style. Oh well. |
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#10 | |
Rear Admiral
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I sort of static and dynamic, depends where I'm hunting. If I'm in Formosa I know groups going north or south cant get past me, so I can sit there. The same with the shipping lane off the west coast of Borneo, you can sit 30 nms of Brunei and catch the large RSRD or TMO for that matter convoys coming either way. Simply, if you know the right places, you can sit and the traffic will come to you. That's the problem with predetermined traffic, easy to deal with once you know it. Seldom did subs static search historically, they were basically always moving, moreso when they started acting like surface raiders. I think in Wahoo, the first patrol with an old Captain Wahoo spent over 500 dived, when Morton took over, it was 60 hours the first patrol......that's balls. He made subs moving surface raiders. |
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#11 | |
Silent Hunter
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Anyone is free to play as they please. I should like to reiterate this concept is not really mine originally. O'Kane mentions this in his book. I don't remember the exact words but the jist of it is that racing around did not provide much advantage in searching for contacts. He said this could be shown mathematically. I just did the math. |
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#12 |
Sea Lord
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I think we are talking about two different things here and I do see your point.
You're wanting to enhance the realism of the game with real world tactics. This is fine I'm trying to maximize what the game gives us to play with. I'm not a real stickler for realism I guess. I don't have anything but respect for O'Kane but I play more like Morton. I'm no WWII navel historian by any means but O'Kane and Morton and the like were no doubt given the best assignments. The 60 day no contact patrols were given to captains of lesser ability. You send your best to where the action is most likely to be. A 60 day no contact patrol may be realistic but not a whole heck of a lot of fun to play IMO. The point I was so poorly trying to make is that, in the game, fuel is seldom a real concern so a dynamic patrol works well. So I'll take the higher rate of return and RTB as soon as possible and get back out as soon as possible. Torpedoes will be the determining factor not fuel. Again in areas where a static patrol would work good are also where the flying thingies are and you can dive faster at 10 knots than zero. I follow mission orders and call in and go the the next mission, don't freelance much. In game mission orders are far different than real ones but I'm not racing around with no plan, I use a tried and proven patrol method. The method depends on several factors, time, place, type of boat, etc. I've tried perpendicular patrolling, not had much success with it but you make a good case so I'll give it another go in the right places. As far as Ultra reports go I've only had two that were anyway near enough to take any action. The TF in my last post was one and the other was the Big Y near Truk. Long chases for both and still no fuel issues. Your 10 knot speed is just fine with me as that is the most fuel efficient game wise and I never exceed that unless I'm in hot pursuit. I was taking your figures to seriously and to be truthful I misread your formula as being absolute rather than relative. I'm not my sharpest at 1 AM, come to think of it, not all that sharp at 1 PM either. Heck it's 1 AM again. ![]() Good debate sir ![]() Good luck and good hunting. Magic
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Reported lost 11 Feb. 1942 Signature by depthtok33l |
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#13 |
Weps
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I would like to interject on all of these thought-provoking topics. First off, what is the name of this book by Mr. O'Kane?
Every skipper has different methods that could work given the circumstances. I believe that every situation is different and requires the ability to adapt. That being said, sometimes surface patrol courses are more effective than submerged static/dynamic sonar sweeps and vice-versa. Captain Morton of the USS Wahoo took a sub that was once commanded by a cautious man who lacked proper incentive and aggression, and turned it into a tonnage logging, effective war machine. Mr. Morton spent a lot of time actively patrolling on the surface. Granted his crew paid the ultimate price for their bravery and aggression, but they also are listed in the records as one of the most successful submarines of the war. |
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#14 |
Navy Seal
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O'Kane wrote two books one was about the Wahoo it is called "Wahoo: The Patrols of America's Most Famous World War II Submarine" O'Kane spent much time on this boat but obviously was not aboard when she was lost but he does his best to estimate her last patrol and hed have the best idea seeing as he was the XO for Morton.
The other book is called "Clear the Bridge" it is about the USS Tang which was O'Kanes boat she was lost to a circle runner but O'Kane a few others survived.Both books go into great detail the methods used by O'Kane and Morton while on patrol and they stayed in one place rarely. "Thunder Below" is another excellent book written by a submarine commander Gene Fulckey who received a Medal of Honor for his exploits his book is very detailed as well.Fluckey who clearly from reading the book was a very good officer and cared greatly for his men and defends both O'Kane and Morton who had bad reputations with some war is war people die even when you make the correct choices and neither man made any obviously huge errors in judgment it was just a better day for the Japanese that day. Personally I after reading these books largely used the same tactics and I had a lot of fun doing so therefore ever since then that is how I play.It seems to me that most of the successful boats generally searched actively most of the time but if the situation warranted they might stay immobile that can be very useful in some situations like if you are near a cost line and seeking a ship hugging the coast staying stationary is wise because you know generally where the vessel is going to be this tactic is also useful in several locations in Japanese home waters. |
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#15 |
Silent Hunter
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![]() I'm still not entirely sure everyone understands what I am trying to say. When I use the term 'static search', I don't mean that one spends weeks firmly anchored to the same spot. More like moving 20 or so miles each night, so that you work the patrol area bit by bit. You could, if you wanted, cover the same distance in a single night, but if it is a light traffic area, the odds are you will not come up with anything in a single day, no matter how far you go. Realistically, I think there were many areas where there would be only one or two potential contacts moving through the vicinity each week. Also, I am assuming that there is quite a bit of movement in attack and evasion, whichever search method you use. Perhaps the term 'static search' is not really the most appropriate term. I think we all agree it is preferable to remain surfaced as much as possible. I more or less assumed this in my example, as submerging reduces your detection radius. |
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