America can be a superpower or a welfare state, but not both.

[Onkel Neal]

...and being a welfare state is a bad option.

Mr. Gates knows well that America won't balance its budget by squeezing the Pentagon. "If you cut the defense budget by 10%, which would be catastrophic in terms of force structure, that's $55 billion out of a $1.4 trillion deficit," he told the Journal's CEO Council conference last November. "We are not the problem."

So what is? Mr. Gates acknowledged it only in passing this week, but the reality is that the entitlement state is crowding out national defense. Over two decades ago, liberal historian Paul Kennedy claimed that "imperial overstretch" had brought first the Romans, then the British and now Americans down to size. He was wrong then, but what's really happening now is "entitlement overstretch," to quote military analyst Andrew Krepinevich.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...pinion_LEADTop

[gimpy117]

so its better to have the power to kill anybody we want at the drop of a hat...but not be able to help our own people. The world has changed, it's not the cold war. it's time we realized that

[the_tyrant]

the loss of superpower status will be catastrophic, it will cause an increased reduction of tax revenue

[Anthony W.]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

so its better to have the power to kill anybody we want at the drop of a hat...but not be able to help our own people. The world has changed, it's not the cold war. it's time we realized that

Our military doesn't JUST influence our ability to kill. It gives us more bargaining power diplomatically and majorly affects the economy...

I am getting REALLY sick of pacifists.

Also, there are a lot of nutjobs that are close to getting their hands on nukes. We have more to worry about now than we did in the closing stages of the cold war, and all through the 90's and early 2000's

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Anthony W.

Our military doesn't JUST influence our ability to kill. It gives us more bargaining power diplomatically and majorly affects the economy...

I am getting REALLY sick of pacifists.

Also, there are a lot of nutjobs that are close to getting their hands on nukes. We have more to worry about now than we did in the closing stages of the cold war, and all through the 90's and early 2000's

I'm not a pacifist, you assume much, but I'm not so privy to strong arming the world.

also, Nukes are not something that can be dealt with with armies, If terrorists get a nuke 30,000 men make no more difference than a 5 man team sent to disable them. and, if a country has nukes, they can use them if they really want to. Our huge standing army can just watch.

remember, in the end, how many troops did we need to get bin laden?

a defense department is important to a country, but i feel we have let it become to influential and expensive for it and it's countries own good

[Anthony W.]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

I'm not a pacifist, you assume much, but I'm not so privy to strong arming the world.

also, Nukes are not something that can be dealt with with armies, If terrorists get a nuke 30,000 men make no more difference than a 5 man team sent to disable them.

remember, in the end, how many troops did we need to get bin laden?

I was making that pacifist statement generally - didn't mean to come off that way

Nukes can't be dealt with troops, that is true - unless that country only has a few. But they can be dealt with submarines, planes, tanks, ships, missiles, and of course other nukes

And - I'm not so sure the whole Bin Laden thing wasn't made up. Politicians on both sides have faked military victories, put false dates on events that are being declassified, ect, just to win reelection. To me it doesn't matter. I'm only voting for 1 incumbent this next election, and thats at a local level.

[yubba]

What part of we're broke don't you understand front, middle, back. Talked to my folks up north, farmers can't get to the fields, for they are too wet, and the heartland is flooded, so hang on boys and girls things are about to get bad, it's one thing to be a welfare state, it's another when you can't feed or shelter them.

[nikimcbee]

So Neal, are you running for office?

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by yubba

What part of we're broke don't you understand front, middle, back. Talked to my folks up north, farmers can't get to the fields, for they are to wet, and the heartland is flooded, so hang on boys and girls things are about to get bad, it's one thing to be a welfare state, it's another when you can't feed or shelter them.

and that ties into my point, the country needs a budget balancing, but the DoD is the 800 pound Gorilla the GOP isn't willing to even mo much as mention. They say they'll roll back to 2008 levels, which isn't much at all...because we were STILL in 2 wars then.

[PeriscopeDepth]

The military needs to understand the Cold War is over. Looking at platforms being pursued for acquisition, force structures, and places the American military has a large, permanent presence sometimes you would not know it.

That being said, our military should still be strong one. And still can be after massive cuts with its bloated size.

PD

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

so its better to have the power to kill anybody we want at the drop of a hat...but not be able to help our own people. The world has changed, it's not the cold war. it's time we realized that

Did it ever occur to you that having the ability to "kill anybody we want at the drop of a hat" creates the ABILITY to help our own people ... all the while preserving our Constitutional freedoms?

Your naivete is astounding. Being a superpower with the ability to project our will and way of life is what gives us the ability to do ... well ... anything.

You believe that the world has changed from the Cold War era. Duh. But Gates is not talking about an arms race - he's referring to maintaining force levels.

The fact of the matter is that we've become a lazy nation. Too many people expect the government to do things for them that they could do themselves. Resistance to Paul Ryan's healthcare proposals is demonstrative of this. Medicare? Takes care of everything - you just fill out the forms (but really you don't, because most providers have staff to do that for you, and indirectly Medicare pays for that as well). Vouchers? Well now - you must do your own research, make your own decisions, etc.

We'll take Medicare, right?

At the end of the day I wonder if we should all merely surrender any freedoms we have left because we are so intent upon doing so anyway. Part of freedom is failure and suffering the consequences thereof. However, preserving the ability to openly engage in this very debate protected by the US Constitution seems worthy of any cost. So if that means we have to balance the budget on the backs of those least WILLING to engage in any semblance of self-sufficiency, so be it.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

The military needs to understand the Cold War is over. Looking at platforms being pursued for acquisition, force structures, and places the American military has a large, permanent presence sometimes you would not know it.

That being said, our military should still be strong one. And still can be after massive cuts with its bloated size.

PD

Examples?

I may have agreed with you 10 years ago, but today???

[Skybird]

That is typical American binary thinking again, black-white-painting. Either we are a superprower, or we are a wellfare state. No in between. It is stupid to think like this.

Additional to defence budget, there are the socalled black budgets, that are unofficial and thus hard to count. The industry directly contributes to it, rich family clans with busniess interests, lobbies, etc etc. We talk about money in the high billions here. none of that has any legitimaiton by laws, the constitution, or through the voters.

Dear America, a bit less dramatizing and thinking in most polaristic extremes, and a bit more modesty and moderation! Just a bit less globals claims and demands, and a bit more social fairness and more equalised chnaces for people instead of a split between poor and rich gaping more and more apart. A bit less tax reliefs for the big companies, and just a bit more modest defence budgets.

This would win many hundreds of billions.

BTW, I know the book by Paul Kennedy the article refers to (briulliant book, btw, and very pleasant to read). WSJ claims with great naturalness Kennedy was wrong when preicting the overstretching of the American Emnpire, like happened to the Roman and British empire before. But that claim by the journal is baseless. There is the dollar crisis, there is the debt crisis, and there are two wars in 8 years showing the hightech military of the empire beeing shown its limits in forming capabilities. There is an energy crisis, too. There is a credit crisis, and there is a falling trust into the Greenback, and threats by the rating agencies to reduce America's credibility. There is an erosion of American infrastructure and a 3rd-world-level powergrid. There are states like California that by the middle of the years sail at the brink of bancruptcy and must shut down public services. If all this does not yell "Overstretch!", then I do not know what the word means.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Anthony W.

Our military doesn't JUST influence our ability to kill. It gives us more bargaining power diplomatically and majorly affects the economy...

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

So Neal, are you running for office?

Haha, not me. I would be a fringe candidate that would make Palin look like Einstein and Ghandi rolled into one.

And once they pass amnesty, and 40 millions Mexicans begin voting, we will have out first former-illegal alien president, and that's the end of the USA.

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

The military needs to understand the Civil War is over.
PD

Fixed

Originally Posted by Skybird

That is typical American binary thinking again, black-white-painting. Either we are a superprower, or we are a wellfare state. No in between. It is stupid to think like this.

Lol, so wel'll be a 3rd rate miltary power and a welfare state. The world needs a few more of those.

I understand what you're suggesting, and that's a good route, but sometimes binary thinking fits the bill.