Pakistan invites China to build naval base at Gwadar

TarJak · 05-24-11, 04:13 PM

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...523-1f0qc.html

Very interesting move both both countries. I was surprised I couldn't find mention of it here (ran searches but came up dry).

The analysis is interesting and I can't help thinking we may be seeing more sabre rattling in the Indian/Pacific region rather than less.

Rudd's Australia/China 2.0 speech is in itself a very interesting statement on our foreign affairs dilema in the coming decade.

CCIP · 05-24-11, 04:16 PM

I think Pakistan is also secretly getting scared of the US. As they should be, if the US is in their right mind now that the Bin Laden story happened.

TarJak · 05-24-11, 04:35 PM

I agree. Pakistan needs an ally right know and the US/Pakistan relationship is on very rocky ground. China sees advantage in working with them for two reasons. It gives them something they want. (A base on the Indian Ocean), and it gives the bird to the US.

GoldenRivet · 05-24-11, 05:13 PM

I say pull back a majority of the middle eastern US Bases and let China have them.

let the Chinese fight for those people and buy their oil and send them trillions of dollars in aide and be hated as a result.

we're done as far as im concerned.

Platapus · 05-24-11, 05:17 PM

Pull out of our bases (scorched earth of course) and then see how many of these countries that have been mouthing off about the repressive USA start to whistle another toon real fast.

We can agree to move our bases back in for a favourable deal from the country.

IF we are going to be the worlds police, then damn it, the world better start paying the bill.

Skybird · 05-24-11, 05:41 PM

Empires only live as long as they expand. Empires contracting or stagnating, die. And for the US, being so heavily dependent on finance and investement from foreign countries, in the globalised world that it once has kick-started itself, isolationism is no option.

India is the deal to focus on, both for Israel and for America. But India is clever enough not to allow becoming dependent on the US, it will always diversify its arms orders, military strategies, and trading relations. Washington must seek the American-Indian axis to counter Pakistan and China and due to what I take for certain: that sooner or later the Asian neighbours of China will move and redefine their relations to China, at the cost of the quality of relations with Washington (thinking of Japan in the main, but also Korea, Taiwan); Israel must fall back to India for its ties with America are loosening slowly, and its relations with the EU are untrustworthy at best, which leaves it with not many potential allies left.

I read some special economic considerations also, that indicated that due to certain differences between India and China, India may show to be set up a bit better than China, becoming the more important economic player in the medium and far range future.

And Pakistan? It's a failed state and is a hostile enemy to the West, and always has been. It never was and never will be an ally. I'm preaching this since years. If the Chinese pick it up, they will have gotten themselves a second North Korea to drive them crazy. That's why I am not really certain that the Chinese really will accept the offer, at least I am not certain that the Pakistani will get the longterm engagement that they probably hope for. Bejing would be stupid to expose itself so much that Pakistan can somewhat blackmail it. If I were a Chinese, I would not agree to the offer. It's a poisened pawn.

Edit:
Looking at the map, Gwadar is quitre exposed a place for China. I wonder if any military Chinese presence there can be defended against decisive military action. On the other hand, it is the ideal tripwire, and a listening sentinel.

Jimbuna · 05-24-11, 06:05 PM

Pull the plug on all aid to Pakistan and build stronger ties with India who I reckon are a stronger nation in military terms and therefore a more beneficial ally in that theatre.

Leave Pakistan to leach off China and find out to their own cost that the Chinese will not put up with their shenanigans....the Chinese will end up controlling them just like they do with NK.

vienna · 05-24-11, 06:40 PM

This could be a further firming of the existing China-Iran-North Korea triad by the addition of Pakistan to the group. China and Pakistan are both nuclear powers; Iran and North Korea want to be. China and Pakistan can't really pursue openly advanced nuclear experimentation and/or development. They can (and probably have) farmed out these operations to Iran and North Korea, thus, at least publicly, keeping 'clean' hands. After all, it's those 'rogue nations' that are conducting those tests, etc., not China or Pakistan. In return for becoming the testing grounds for the nuclear powers, Iran and North Korea gain access to technology and process they probably could not readily develop themselves (also, North Korea gets an infusion of currency to confound the UN/US embargoes). Added to this is the already existing trade in shortrange and ballistic missile manufacturing and technology and there then exists a very potent and threatening aspect of global strategey, all under the protective umbrella of China.

Platapus · 05-24-11, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vienna

China and Pakistan can't really pursue openly advanced nuclear experimentation and/or development.

Why not? China is a recognized Nuclear Five club member and Pakistan never signed the NPT.

Both have signed and ratified the Partial Test Ban treaty which prohibits above ground testing. So as long as they test underground, they are kosher.

And the CTBT is dead in the water.

So China and Pakistan can pursue openly advanced nuclear experimentation/development. The only hitch is that China is not supposed to give Pakistan any nuclear weapon information or material.

There are no restrictions on Pakistan.

TarJak · 05-25-11, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Pull the plug on all aid to Pakistan and build stronger ties with India who I reckon are a stronger nation in military terms and therefore a more beneficial ally in that theatre.

Leave Pakistan to leach off China and find out to their own cost that the Chinese will not put up with their shenanigans....the Chinese will end up controlling them just like they do with NK.

I'm with you there. The thing that concerns me most is when China decides that the US is weak enough for them to stop paying for their Australian resources and I end up down a mine on starvation rations pulling up free metals and coal for our new Chinese overlords.

Jimbuna · 05-25-11, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarJak

I'm with you there. The thing that concerns me most is when China decides that the US is weak enough for them to stop paying for their Australian resources and I end up down a mine on starvation rations pulling up free metals and coal for our new Chinese overlords.

Should bring back a few memories then

05-24-11, 04:13 PM	#1
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	Pakistan invites China to build naval base at Gwadar http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...523-1f0qc.html Very interesting move both both countries. I was surprised I couldn't find mention of it here (ran searches but came up dry). The analysis is interesting and I can't help thinking we may be seeing more sabre rattling in the Indian/Pacific region rather than less. Rudd's Australia/China 2.0 speech is in itself a very interesting statement on our foreign affairs dilema in the coming decade.

05-24-11, 04:16 PM	#2
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	I think Pakistan is also secretly getting scared of the US. As they should be, if the US is in their right mind now that the Bin Laden story happened. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

05-24-11, 05:13 PM	#4
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	I say pull back a majority of the middle eastern US Bases and let China have them. let the Chinese fight for those people and buy their oil and send them trillions of dollars in aide and be hated as a result. we're done as far as im concerned. __________________

05-24-11, 05:17 PM	#5
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,362 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	Pull out of our bases (scorched earth of course) and then see how many of these countries that have been mouthing off about the repressive USA start to whistle another toon real fast. We can agree to move our bases back in for a favourable deal from the country. IF we are going to be the worlds police, then damn it, the world better start paying the bill. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

05-24-11, 05:41 PM	#6
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,616 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Empires only live as long as they expand. Empires contracting or stagnating, die. And for the US, being so heavily dependent on finance and investement from foreign countries, in the globalised world that it once has kick-started itself, isolationism is no option. India is the deal to focus on, both for Israel and for America. But India is clever enough not to allow becoming dependent on the US, it will always diversify its arms orders, military strategies, and trading relations. Washington must seek the American-Indian axis to counter Pakistan and China and due to what I take for certain: that sooner or later the Asian neighbours of China will move and redefine their relations to China, at the cost of the quality of relations with Washington (thinking of Japan in the main, but also Korea, Taiwan); Israel must fall back to India for its ties with America are loosening slowly, and its relations with the EU are untrustworthy at best, which leaves it with not many potential allies left. I read some special economic considerations also, that indicated that due to certain differences between India and China, India may show to be set up a bit better than China, becoming the more important economic player in the medium and far range future. And Pakistan? It's a failed state and is a hostile enemy to the West, and always has been. It never was and never will be an ally. I'm preaching this since years. If the Chinese pick it up, they will have gotten themselves a second North Korea to drive them crazy. That's why I am not really certain that the Chinese really will accept the offer, at least I am not certain that the Pakistani will get the longterm engagement that they probably hope for. Bejing would be stupid to expose itself so much that Pakistan can somewhat blackmail it. If I were a Chinese, I would not agree to the offer. It's a poisened pawn. Edit: Looking at the map, Gwadar is quitre exposed a place for China. I wonder if any military Chinese presence there can be defended against decisive military action. On the other hand, it is the ideal tripwire, and a listening sentinel. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 05-24-11 at 06:01 PM.

05-24-11, 04:35 PM	#3
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	I agree. Pakistan needs an ally right know and the US/Pakistan relationship is on very rocky ground. China sees advantage in working with them for two reasons. It gives them something they want. (A base on the Indian Ocean), and it gives the bird to the US.

05-24-11, 06:05 PM	#7
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,525 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Pull the plug on all aid to Pakistan and build stronger ties with India who I reckon are a stronger nation in military terms and therefore a more beneficial ally in that theatre. Leave Pakistan to leach off China and find out to their own cost that the Chinese will not put up with their shenanigans....the Chinese will end up controlling them just like they do with NK. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

05-24-11, 06:40 PM	#8
vienna Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Anywhere but the here & now... Posts: 7,711 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	This could be a further firming of the existing China-Iran-North Korea triad by the addition of Pakistan to the group. China and Pakistan are both nuclear powers; Iran and North Korea want to be. China and Pakistan can't really pursue openly advanced nuclear experimentation and/or development. They can (and probably have) farmed out these operations to Iran and North Korea, thus, at least publicly, keeping 'clean' hands. After all, it's those 'rogue nations' that are conducting those tests, etc., not China or Pakistan. In return for becoming the testing grounds for the nuclear powers, Iran and North Korea gain access to technology and process they probably could not readily develop themselves (also, North Korea gets an infusion of currency to confound the UN/US embargoes). Added to this is the already existing trade in shortrange and ballistic missile manufacturing and technology and there then exists a very potent and threatening aspect of global strategey, all under the protective umbrella of China.