Poland urged to act over old property claims

[Gerald]

Poland is postponing moves to partially compensate families who lost property during the upheavals of Nazi occupation and communism.

Poland's chief rabbi, Michael Schudrich, criticised the government's decision to suspend work on a law designed to address the historical property claims of Jews and other Polish citizens.

"As a moral challenge, any government must face this challenge and should not walk away and I would hope that the Polish government could do the same," Rabbi Schudrich told the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12938349

Note: 2 April 2011 Last updated at 01:27 GMT

[UnderseaLcpl]

Given that a sizeable chunk of Poland is sitting on what should by all rights should have been post-WW1 Germany that was stolen from them at Versailles, I'd urge the Poles to just call it square.

[AngusJS]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Given that a sizeable chunk of Poland is sitting on what should by all rights should have been post-WW1 Germany that was stolen from them at Versailles

Which was stolen from Poland in the 1700s.

[Buddahaid]

Which my ancestor Og owned first.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by AngusJS

Which was stolen from Poland in the 1700s.

Actually, it was stolen from them before that, too., waaay back when the Teutonic Knights decided it would be fun to run roughshod over the pagans. And after WW2 Poland was occupied by the Soviets.

Now that I think about it, Poland has spent a great deal of its history being occupied or as a puppet state. Why haven't the Poles stood up and defended their borders? I mean, after all, how many Poles could it possibly take to defend the borders?

Oh. Ohhh. Nevermind. Forget that I asked the question.

[kranz]

I'm always amazed when Europeans discuss the problems of the US (here, on this forum) and t try to look as if they knew fcking everything about the New World. Be so kind, and do NOT do the same pls. Below you have the map of Poland from the 16/17 th century. I know that it is so fcking nice to be a smartass talking about Polish western borders, bcoz after WWII they were "stolen" from the Germans. How about todays Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine? Coming back to Jews. If I were a cynical son of a .... I would ask: where are the ppl who sue Poland for some houses and acres of land? Why did they "leave" such a fortune here? And even more- what were they doing in such a great numbers so far away from their "holy land"? But I won't. The problem appeared in Poland after 1989. During the communist regime we had no problems- no legal actions were taken. Why should we pay after 60 years- I don't know.

[gimpy117]

and ironically they want The littlefield panther back from California because "it was stolen" Even though when it left Poland it wasn't Govt property and was only a turetless rusted empty shell.

[Freiwillige]

They want the Tank? Good luck! I think the Germans would have more claim

I doubt the Panther is going anywhere!

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by kranz

I'm always amazed when Europeans discuss the problems of the US (here, on this forum) and t try to look as if they knew fcking everything about the New World. Be so kind, and do NOT do the same pls. Below you have the map of Poland from the 16/17 th century. I know that it is so fcking nice to be a smartass talking about Polish western borders, bcoz after WWII they were "stolen" from the Germans. How about todays Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine? Coming back to Jews. If I were a cynical son of a .... I would ask: where are the ppl who sue Poland for some houses and acres of land? Why did they "leave" such a fortune here? And even more- what were they doing in such a great numbers so far away from their "holy land"? But I won't. The problem appeared in Poland after 1989. During the communist regime we had no problems- no legal actions were taken. Why should we pay after 60 years- I don't know.

Whoa. Stand down, kranz. I was just trying to make a joke, albeit a bad one, obviously. I don't seriously think Germany is entitled to your land. That would be silly, which is kind of why I thought it would make a good joke. No offence intended, I assure you.

Clearly, the lightbulb over my head needs changing. As an apology, I would like to hire Polish workers to do it, given their well-known experience in such matters. I'm just not quite sure how many I should hire.....

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

They want the Tank? Good luck! I think the Germans would have more claim

I doubt the Panther is going anywhere!

thats what a lot of people have been saying. The polish man who filed the lawsuit is also a curator of a polish tank museum. I wonder why they want that tank back so bad after it's multi million dollar restoration?

[joegrundman]

Originally Posted by kranz

I'm always amazed when Europeans discuss the problems of the US (here, on this forum) and t try to look as if they knew fcking everything about the New World. Be so kind, and do NOT do the same pls. Below you have the map of Poland from the 16/17 th century. I know that it is so fcking nice to be a smartass talking about Polish western borders, bcoz after WWII they were "stolen" from the Germans. How about todays Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine? Coming back to Jews. If I were a cynical son of a .... I would ask: where are the ppl who sue Poland for some houses and acres of land? Why did they "leave" such a fortune here? And even more- what were they doing in such a great numbers so far away from their "holy land"? But I won't. The problem appeared in Poland after 1989. During the communist regime we had no problems- no legal actions were taken. Why should we pay after 60 years- I don't know.

Oh no! we've triggered a Polish nationalist/barely repressed anti-semitism response!

Nonetheless, being from Poland, and once your red mist has dissipated, I am sure you do in fact have something to say on the matter.

OK, you show a map of Poland from 16th/17th century - please explain why that particular map is relevant. Borders and populations were always in flux - is that map showing the 'definitive' Poland in your opinion?

By your remarks about stolen western provinces - are you saying that a slice of post ww1 germany was not forcibly given to Poland and the German inhabitants dispossessed? ie not an area that declared itself to be Poland after ww1. Why not give us your informed and calm opinion rather than your Polish Patriotic Rage opinion. Some of us may be interested

also you mention todays Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine. Please explain. What about them?

And why so angry with jews? Besides if you read the article, you'll see most claimants are Polish catholics who were dispossessed during the communist era and their properties turned over to public/state usage. If you think about it you can probably work out why that may be.

It may or may not interest you to know that my family were also dispossessed of property in that time, and which we still have claim to. But we as a family have decided not to pursue the claim. It is now part of a public park in Germany.

It is also my opinion, but others do not share it, that after a certain amount of time you should write off these claims. The grandchildren of those involved in ww2 are now on average entering middle age, and there must be a limit. Otherwise what? How far back do you go?

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by joegrundman

It is also my opinion, but others do not share it, that after a certain amount of time you should write off these claims. The grandchildren of those involved in ww2 are now on average entering middle age, and there must be a limit. Otherwise what? How far back do you go?

Amen. Take Karelia in our case: some people still insist that we should get it back from Russia, but as far as I know, they are a minority. Many opinions I've seen are actually totally contrary to that: some people wouldn't want it back even if it was possible. There would be too many problems for it to be worth the effort.

Some of my grand parents are from there, but none of them wants it back anymore. The houses they lived in haven't even existed for a long time, so I can sort of understand it. And as someone few generations away from those events and places, I see no reason for why I would want it back. Time goes by. I can respect those whose life was in there and understand their opinion, but I don't understand why I should be forced to share it. Because of nationalism? Or some idealistic idea of "the good old days"? Or what?

[kranz]

Originally Posted by joegrundman

OK, you show a map of Poland from 16th/17th century - please explain why that particular map is relevant. Borders and populations were always in flux - is that map showing the 'definitive' Poland in your opinion?

By your remarks about stolen western provinces - are you saying that a slice of post ww1 germany was not forcibly given to Poland and the German inhabitants dispossessed? ie not an area that declared itself to be Poland after ww1. Why not give us your informed and calm opinion rather than your Polish Patriotic Rage opinion. Some of us may be interested

also you mention todays Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine. Please explain. What about them?

every time there is a discussion about "stolen" lands, the western Polish border is always mentioned as the key argument. The problem with the these lands is that they were in conflict dating back to the rise of Poland which is the late 10th century. First Polish kings fought many battles against German land lords, princes, kings and emperors for these lands. There were periods of time-like 300+ years when Poland was deprived of these lands. There were shorter periods of time when "Germany (or the German Empire and their vassals) had no control over them. If you look at culture there there is no doubt that these lands became more German than Polish because of several factors like increased settlement etc. So I'm not trying to persuade you that they belong to Poland longer than to Germany, on the contrary but they never belong to either only Germany or only Poland.
The map which I've posted shows not a short "flux" but the range of Polish political and social influences in that period. The lands southern of todays Poland were not an outcome of some war, crusade against pagans etc but a well established settlements belonging to Polish gentry and under the legal control of the Polish kings. The fact I mentioned the countries like Ukraine etc: 50% of Ukraine was Polish- actually, in the Medieval times there was NO such a country like Ukraine. Face it- those lands were divided between Poland and todays Russia (also not a good name but w/e). Belarus- no such a country. Lithuania- no such a country- maybe in lesser degree than the Ukraine case but still- Polish kings owned these lands. Hungary, Moldovia- check that map once again and compare it with a contemporary map. Why the heck the debate always spins around "lands stolen from Germany" ?? Besides, the borders were established during the Jalta conference- blame your bloody leader Roosevelt who was so bloody submissive that he decided to agree on Stalin's choice. After that conference Poland gained much of the lands but lost much more on the east side. Can't give you precise numbers tho. I'm not an enraged anti-semite but a few weeks ago the Polish public opinion has ended the discussion about Poles selling Jewish families, digging the graves near ex-concentration camps searching for gold, golden teeth and jewels. So I'm kinda tired of accusing Poland for everything bad which happened to Jews here. Sorry- we didn't start that war, we lost it (50 years of communism) and we are tired of listening to the whining about what they left here. Send the bills to Berlin or Moscow.