US Libya legislative hypocrisy....

CaptainHaplo · 03-23-11, 06:32 PM

Now many here (among other places) know I am right of center, and that I don't like our current president. With that said, a number of legislators (from both sides) are giving the president a hard time over the recent actions we have led in Libya.

Specifically, the use of military force without a declaration of war and without the consent of Congress. Many are saying that his actions without congressional approval are an abuse of authority.

However, lets be real here. The republicans who were yelling at him to get off his arse and DO something are now complaining that he did. The democrats that are upset are mad because without consulting them, they can't take credit for stopping a massacre.

Should Obama have acted earlier? Yes, but thats water under the bridge.

Should Obama make clear how US forces will transition out of an active combat role and into one of pure (and ever decreasing) support? Absolutely. He doesn't really know yet, so he can't.

How is this going to get paid for? Another question he doesn't have an answer for.

What's the real goal? He can't make up his mind....

Yes, he complained that Bush did this very same thing....

All legitimate knocks on the guy.

Yet ultimately he did act. We can disagree over what we are doing, who we are really helping, the cost and all else.... But to complain because he wasn't doing something when he "could" (as some legislative eggheads said he should be doing) and then complain when he does it - is inexcusable.

To yell about impeachment or defunding the operation because you don't get to have the good pr that comes with telling the nation your acting to save lives - is pathetic.

Just a rant about the hypocrisy of some who put politics higher than anything else.

MaddogK · 03-23-11, 06:39 PM

Is this really a U.N. operation that we are supplying most of the muscle for, or are we simply using the U.N. as cover to push regime change. This talk of assassination because of our history with daffy will have a high price with our allies in the region.

We need to abide by the limits of the U.N. resolution and pull a Germany- GTFO ASAP !

Platapus · 03-23-11, 07:36 PM

The War Powers Act of 1973 gives the President the authority to commit military forces as long as he

1. Informs, in writing, the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate within 48 hours

2. Submits to congress a written report justifying the action. If congress does not take positive action, the military forces must be removed at the end of 60 days. The President can ask for one 30 day extension but he needs to justify that also.

Same rules as for Bush.

03-23-11, 08:05 PM

Yea I find it funny that a man that made his political career bashing Bush, has done the same exact thing, but the White House's response to this? Iraq and Afghanistan are wars, this thing in Lybia is not a war...

Atleast Bush had the balls to say that they were wars, justified or not. But I agree about the hypocrisy. I do think Qadaffi needs to go, and its clear he will no do so under his own power. Therefore he needs to be forced to see reason. The White House's response? Sunday it appeared we were there to save lives. Starting a war, to save lives. Must I say that "War.....War never changes." War does nothing but kill people innocent and guilty alike, to make a claim otherwise just isn't so.

Don't even get me started on Congress. Yea we won a victory in November, but without the Senate under our control the Dems can shove the top quarters into their hind quarters just as they have been doing since 2004. The house's hands are effectively tied, and of course you can't expect the President to go along with anything the House brings to the table, even if it does by some miracle pass in the Senate.

mookiemookie · 03-23-11, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

2. Submits to congress a written report justifying the action. If congress does not take positive action, the military forces must be removed at the end of 60 days. The President can ask for one 30 day extension but he needs to justify that also.

Same rules as for Bush.

Let's hope that's as long as this lasts. I have a feeling it won't be.

Platapus · 03-23-11, 08:12 PM

Oh I agree, I can't wait for the first "advisers" to be deployed to Libya.

Sailor Steve · 03-24-11, 02:00 AM

I'm entertained by everybody jumping on the bandwagon without noticing which bandwagon they've jumped on. Not one person has addressed what Haplo was actually talking about.

03-24-11, 02:54 AM

It has been funny watching the talking heads spin on the news, they really don't know what to say as they have to condemn that which they justify and justify what they condemn, often in the same sentance.

Unfolding events throughout the middleeast have left them very confused and their black/white view has before their eyes turned a very mushy gray.
Yet they are still attempting a black/white line on it even though their white angle is obviously sortablack and their black is sortawhite.

Castout · 03-24-11, 02:54 AM

I'm just glad that many Libyans are saved. My hat off to Obama. Late or otherwise the action saves a lot of people's lives including women and children. Ultimately it saves US standing on the world stage for people like me.
I don't care what else it's saving many many lives. For that I'm grateful.

You see your current president as bad as what his critics and oppositions are saying is actually admittedly first US president who gains a large international popularity on the world stage. True he gains that by being the first African American US president but like it or not he's an international figurehead now. True that every US president might have been an international figures by large but Obama is the first to capture the hearts and mind of the international community. If you don't like the guy we could use him being ours frankly and would be glad to swap ours with yours. But in US ours would probably cause massive riots within 3 months and the dissolution of USA a day after.

It's a very tough and stressful job being a US president especially in these times and for that alone the guy deserves some slack.

03-24-11, 03:02 AM

Oh I get what he is saying, the Republican "warmongers" can't get what they want without a formal declaration, and bleeding heart Democrats can't take credit without it either. It's a clever catch 22 but I doubt the man is intelligent enough to have done it purposely. It just happened so.

I got what he meant, I just chose not to really hear it. He was just blown off steam.

Oddly enough as half hazardly as he has done this little episode, it the first thing the man has done since he stepped foot in the White House that has my full support.

Do I think he will see it through? No it's not in his political genes. What does that mean for us? Only time will tell and hopefully it will be kind and inexpensive.

Molon Labe · 03-24-11, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

The War Powers Act of 1973 gives the President the authority to commit military forces as long as he

1. Informs, in writing, the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate within 48 hours

2. Submits to congress a written report justifying the action. If congress does not take positive action, the military forces must be removed at the end of 60 days. The President can ask for one 30 day extension but he needs to justify that also.

Same rules as for Bush.

The War Powers Act isn't worth the paper it's printed on. The powers of the Federal government are delineated in the Constitution; Congress can not legislate more power for itself.

krashkart · 03-24-11, 07:07 AM

Well, Mr. Haplo it sounds like business as usual in Washington D.C. You can have your scrambled eggs one of two ways:

this way... *SPLAT*
or that way... *SPLORT*

mookiemookie · 03-24-11, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Castout

You see your current president as bad as what his critics and oppositions are saying is actually admittedly first US president who gains a large international popularity on the world stage. True he gains that by being the first African American US president but like it or not he's an international figurehead now. True that every US president might have been an international figures by large but Obama is the first to capture the hearts and mind of the international community. If you don't like the guy we could use him being ours frankly and would be glad to swap ours with yours. But in US ours would probably cause massive riots within 3 months and the dissolution of USA a day after.

Great. Then the international community can start paying the bill. Where should we send the invoice?

We have overcrowded schools, thousands and thousands of people dying every year for lack of health insurance, children starving and we're off gallivanting on foreign entanglements around the Middle East like we have money to burn. I believe we should get our own house in order before playing world cop.

Catfish · 03-24-11, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

We have overcrowded schools, thousands and thousands of people dying every year for lack of health insurance, children starving and we're off gallivanting on foreign entanglements around the Middle East like we have money to burn. I believe we should get our own house in order before playing world cop.

Well, right !

You were not really playing "world cop" before, this was just a mere action to secure resources and enforce hand-tight political goals for the US, by the US, around the world. But now as someone decides to help the population instead of its dictator at the head, you say "we should not play world cop" ? Then you should not have done it before - this is the first time it is done for the people and the rest of the world is aware of it.
But you freely chose to build more flattops, submarines, drones, stealth ships and pay billions for the military development, and the upkeep of what's already there.
Along with illiteracy and whatnot you "wisely refrain" from good education and a public health system for everyone, and if anyone proposes to spend at least a tenth of the military expenses for your own population's good and improvement he is a communist and a traitor, was born in Kenya (imagine THAT, someone born in Kenya ! Outrageous!! Oh he was born in Hawaii !! Where is that ? do you know he's black ? Awwwe) and is the Antichrist.
At the same time you sponsor and pay the bank directors who are responsible for the worst crisis since 60 years in financial circles, while hundred thousands of US citizens are bankrupt because they trusted those very banks.
The US was already bankrupt after the Vietnam war, there was just enough money printed by the federal bank, today money itself IS debt, and inflation is a hidden tax on the public. The last time the US were not in debt was the civil war, using the northern greenbacks - after the federal bank had been closed by Lincoln as violating US constitution (!) there wasn't even a federal bank in the US, until 1913.
I can't hear that BS anymore ! Yes goddam, keep your house clean, and begin with the banks, CIA, and the cold war warriors who still lead this country by the nose.

/rant
only playing devil's advocate here

flatsixes · 03-24-11, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Castout

It's a very tough and stressful job being a US president especially in these times and for that alone the guy deserves some slack.

Slack? Good lord, man. Cut the president some slack?
This isn't a flub at a high school debate team meet. The leader of the most powerful nation on earth has committed the blood and treasure of that nation to an act of war. "Oops! My bad!" isn't an option. Anything less than complete competence is inexcusable. Tough job? Yeah. Now you better damned well succeed at it.

03-23-11, 06:32 PM	#1
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,404 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	US Libya legislative hypocrisy.... Now many here (among other places) know I am right of center, and that I don't like our current president. With that said, a number of legislators (from both sides) are giving the president a hard time over the recent actions we have led in Libya. Specifically, the use of military force without a declaration of war and without the consent of Congress. Many are saying that his actions without congressional approval are an abuse of authority. However, lets be real here. The republicans who were yelling at him to get off his arse and DO something are now complaining that he did. The democrats that are upset are mad because without consulting them, they can't take credit for stopping a massacre. Should Obama have acted earlier? Yes, but thats water under the bridge. Should Obama make clear how US forces will transition out of an active combat role and into one of pure (and ever decreasing) support? Absolutely. He doesn't really know yet, so he can't. How is this going to get paid for? Another question he doesn't have an answer for. What's the real goal? He can't make up his mind.... Yes, he complained that Bush did this very same thing.... All legitimate knocks on the guy. Yet ultimately he did act. We can disagree over what we are doing, who we are really helping, the cost and all else.... But to complain because he wasn't doing something when he "could" (as some legislative eggheads said he should be doing) and then complain when he does it - is inexcusable. To yell about impeachment or defunding the operation because you don't get to have the good pr that comes with telling the nation your acting to save lives - is pathetic. Just a rant about the hypocrisy of some who put politics higher than anything else. __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo

03-23-11, 06:39 PM	#2
MaddogK XO Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Chicago, Ill. Posts: 409 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Is this really a U.N. operation that we are supplying most of the muscle for, or are we simply using the U.N. as cover to push regime change. This talk of assassination because of our history with daffy will have a high price with our allies in the region. We need to abide by the limits of the U.N. resolution and pull a Germany- GTFO ASAP ! __________________ May fortune favor the foolish

03-23-11, 07:36 PM	#3
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,360 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	The War Powers Act of 1973 gives the President the authority to commit military forces as long as he 1. Informs, in writing, the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate within 48 hours 2. Submits to congress a written report justifying the action. If congress does not take positive action, the military forces must be removed at the end of 60 days. The President can ask for one 30 day extension but he needs to justify that also. Same rules as for Bush. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

03-23-11, 08:12 PM	#6
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,360 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	Oh I agree, I can't wait for the first "advisers" to be deployed to Libya. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

03-24-11, 02:00 AM	#7
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	I'm entertained by everybody jumping on the bandwagon without noticing which bandwagon they've jumped on. Not one person has addressed what Haplo was actually talking about. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

03-23-11, 08:05 PM	#4
Slyguy3129 Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Yea I find it funny that a man that made his political career bashing Bush, has done the same exact thing, but the White House's response to this? Iraq and Afghanistan are wars, this thing in Lybia is not a war... Atleast Bush had the balls to say that they were wars, justified or not. But I agree about the hypocrisy. I do think Qadaffi needs to go, and its clear he will no do so under his own power. Therefore he needs to be forced to see reason. The White House's response? Sunday it appeared we were there to save lives. Starting a war, to save lives. Must I say that "War.....War never changes." War does nothing but kill people innocent and guilty alike, to make a claim otherwise just isn't so. Don't even get me started on Congress. Yea we won a victory in November, but without the Senate under our control the Dems can shove the top quarters into their hind quarters just as they have been doing since 2004. The house's hands are effectively tied, and of course you can't expect the President to go along with anything the House brings to the table, even if it does by some miracle pass in the Senate.

03-24-11, 02:54 AM	#8
Tribesman Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	It has been funny watching the talking heads spin on the news, they really don't know what to say as they have to condemn that which they justify and justify what they condemn, often in the same sentance. Unfolding events throughout the middleeast have left them very confused and their black/white view has before their eyes turned a very mushy gray. Yet they are still attempting a black/white line on it even though their white angle is obviously sortablack and their black is sortawhite.

03-24-11, 02:54 AM	#9
Castout Silent Hunter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Jakarta Posts: 4,794 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 6	I'm just glad that many Libyans are saved. My hat off to Obama. Late or otherwise the action saves a lot of people's lives including women and children. Ultimately it saves US standing on the world stage for people like me. I don't care what else it's saving many many lives. For that I'm grateful. You see your current president as bad as what his critics and oppositions are saying is actually admittedly first US president who gains a large international popularity on the world stage. True he gains that by being the first African American US president but like it or not he's an international figurehead now. True that every US president might have been an international figures by large but Obama is the first to capture the hearts and mind of the international community. If you don't like the guy we could use him being ours frankly and would be glad to swap ours with yours. But in US ours would probably cause massive riots within 3 months and the dissolution of USA a day after. It's a very tough and stressful job being a US president especially in these times and for that alone the guy deserves some slack. __________________ My blog: http://exposingsingapore.wordpress.com/ Last edited by Castout; 03-24-11 at 03:07 AM.

03-24-11, 03:02 AM	#10
Slyguy3129 Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Oh I get what he is saying, the Republican "warmongers" can't get what they want without a formal declaration, and bleeding heart Democrats can't take credit without it either. It's a clever catch 22 but I doubt the man is intelligent enough to have done it purposely. It just happened so. I got what he meant, I just chose not to really hear it. He was just blown off steam. Oddly enough as half hazardly as he has done this little episode, it the first thing the man has done since he stepped foot in the White House that has my full support. Do I think he will see it through? No it's not in his political genes. What does that mean for us? Only time will tell and hopefully it will be kind and inexpensive.

03-24-11, 07:07 AM	#12
krashkart Navy Seal Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 5,292 Downloads: 100 Uploads: 0	Well, Mr. Haplo it sounds like business as usual in Washington D.C. You can have your scrambled eggs one of two ways: this way... SPLAT or that way... SPLORT __________________ sent from my fingertips using a cheap keyboard Last edited by krashkart; 03-24-11 at 07:30 AM.