Fast TF Approach and Penetration

Doenitz2008 · 03-06-11, 03:42 PM

Penetrating a convoy. I've located a huge CV
TF. Conditions are : 0030, light winds, no
fog, calm seas, and no moon. The TF is
bearing 82, at a distance of 8.2 NM, heading SW, speed 21.
The first contact is the lead DD of a DD picket consisting of
4 on the starboard side of the TF and 4 to port. The interior
of the convoy consists of at least 1 CV and several CA's. I'm
on my 8th patrol of a career which I am basically using for learning
different targeting and approach techniques so I have multiple saves.
I've tried various approaches and have not managed to get into
the interior. The TF is going too fast for me to plot an end around
intercept, plus it is in the Slot so I don't have a huge amount of
distance to play with. I've tried approaching at 90 degrees as deep
as possible. I got almost close enough for a firing solution into the
first row, but I was getting pinged about 3-4 minutes before my
target reached solution. I've tried approaching at a more obtuse
angle, say 45 degrees, but again I was detected and this time
way beyond a firing solution. Probably they detected me on passive
sonar. I'm beginning to think that I might have just detected this
TF at a much less than optimal initial setup and it might just
be impossible to get into it. Seems that a successful attack on a
fast moving TF is just as much a matter of being lucky in detecting
it initially with a more optimal setup as it is with your approach
to it. Any tips welcomed.

gAiNiAc · 03-06-11, 04:14 PM

It's been a while since I've been here..........

but.............

Get aggressive.

Sucker the screen into charging you and charge the main body.

If detection is a given then move in fast, get shots off then evade taking advantage of the chaos.

Try and get a bead on the first ship of the main column. Hit her and the following ships will have to slow and avoid providing further targets of opportunity.

commandosolo2009 · 03-06-11, 04:22 PM

well, play it safe. If you have a save before current position while they're a while back, head further try to line up with the carrier. If you dont, dont bother, save your fuel, and report it to comsubpac. I'm sure you wont mind a deeper boat taking the Carrier out, since you're all part of the same team..

Another idea, is to establish their base course and move well ahead. If you're coming to a dead end, save your eels for merchants.., oh, and report to comsubpac..

Go get'em tiger!!

pabbi · 03-06-11, 05:39 PM

Conditions are : 0030, light winds, no
fog, calm seas, and no moon.

Are you sure you can´t get to them on surface. Say 45° angle.

Doenitz2008 · 03-06-11, 05:39 PM

I've pretty much tried every angle and the geometry just isn't working out. Bummer. If someone wants to have a go at it I'll send you a save game file.

TorpX · 03-06-11, 06:00 PM

I don't have a magic wand and I doubt there is one.
In RL, finding a large TF was very unusual and sinking a capitol ship was even more so. Most sub skippers, even the successful ones, never got one. It is easy to forget that. As you found out, hitting a fast moving and well protected target is not easy (nor should it be). This is especially true when you start in an unfavorable position. The odds of success are usually better, if you start out ahead of the group (as you already figured out). My advice would be to make your best approach, and if you can't get close, make a long range shot. When it comes to capitol ships, even a very long shot is better than none at all. Happy Hunting!

Diopos · 03-06-11, 06:23 PM

If the TF is at a relative bearing 82° heading SW and fast try to maneuver for an aft shot. That is move in reverse and try for an O'Kane (or whatever angle attainable) with your aft tubes.

.

Armistead · 03-06-11, 07:39 PM

All you need to do is fire a torp from long range, M14, they see the wake, they'll slow down and go into a zig pattern. I even use the DG, 5-6000 yards works well. Obvious this is a night tactic.

Haul arse after the first hit or they see the torps. Escorts will head to where the torps came from, you should be long gone then, you should now have an exposed flank to attack with your next end around. Takes timing, but works great.

I'll often get found out at long range on purpose by radar, torp wake.
Usually I do it from the front of the group about 5000 yards to a flank.
When the escorts chasing get about 6000 yards I'll dive flank and head to my attack point. The escorts will go to where you dived, so go deep and fast and head away, if you can get 2000 yards away from where you dived before they get there, they probably won't find you. You should be able to come up and attack why the escorts are searching where you dived.

Platapus · 03-06-11, 08:32 PM

Surface and use deck guns ya wuss!

Seriously, this is an interesting tactical problem. Good luck in getting a good solution to it.

I'm goin' down · 03-07-11, 02:09 AM

Armitead knosw what he is talkking about.

I prefer to come in below the thermal lawyer if I am in deep water. Plot the TF course. Set up of O'Kane. Do not surface until the first dd passes your zero bearing. You will be in the TF perimeter and fire away. You can use manual targeting if you have time to fiddle with the range dials when you surface, but O'Kane is simpler.

Shallow water. After plotting the TF course and speed, set up for manual targeting using the Easy Aob. Submerge and move to 3000 to 3,500 yds. Fire when the first dd crosses zero bearing and your target moves within range. Alternative, use the constant bearing technique.

Manual targeting example. My machine crashed after I hit a Yamato in July, 44 with 5 torps at a running depth of 25 feet, and it did not sink. I got to replay the mission as a result, as the mission was not saved. The second time I hit it with 5 torps running at 32-34 feet. Range on both attack runs was 3,600 yds. The second time the Yamato sailed off...again. Two hours later, as my boat was chasing the dds that accompanied it, I caught sight of it at long range behind me. It was dead in the water. I circled back and hit it with three more torpedoes, making eight total hits. It went down, finally. I sailed back to port expecting the medal of honor, but all I ended up with when I docked was a promotion to a desk job....the war had ended!

commandosolo2009 · 03-07-11, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doenitz2008

I've pretty much tried every angle and the geometry just isn't working out. Bummer. If someone wants to have a go at it I'll send you a save game file.

OK, I wanna have a go. Send me the mission file. I'll record and upload a youtube sinking response

Hylander_1314 · 03-07-11, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

All you need to do is fire a torp from long range, M14, they see the wake, they'll slow down and go into a zig pattern. I even use the DG, 5-6000 yards works well. Obvious this is a night tactic.

Haul arse after the first hit or they see the torps. Escorts will head to where the torps came from, you should be long gone then, you should now have an exposed flank to attack with your next end around. Takes timing, but works great.

I'll often get found out at long range on purpose by radar, torp wake.
Usually I do it from the front of the group about 5000 yards to a flank.
When the escorts chasing get about 6000 yards I'll dive flank and head to my attack point. The escorts will go to where you dived, so go deep and fast and head away, if you can get 2000 yards away from where you dived before they get there, they probably won't find you. You should be able to come up and attack why the escorts are searching where you dived.

Best advice here!

It's the exact same thing I do when in that situation. Most fast moving TFs I've run across are making 30+ knots which easily outpaces my fleetboat, so a fish fired from any angle to get them to slow their pace, while you hal @$$ is the best thing to get their attention, and as Armistead said you should be outta there long before the escorts arrive, since they will slow to 15 knots or less, and combined with the zig-zagging, makes their linear speed even a bit less, you should more than enough time get ahead of them, charge in close enough, dive to periscope depth, and hit them on that open flank side of the TF.

Even though they don't do much, have a few of the Mk 27 Cuties in the aft tubes to discourage any escorts that may try to tail you. I have had DDs break off from following me from the blast of a Cutie under the keel. Even sent one to bottom once. Usually though, they stagger off, and it gives you a break to either dive deep, or beat it to the next intercept point.

I'm goin' down · 03-07-11, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

All you need to do is fire a torp from long range, M14, they see the wake, they'll slow down and go into a zig pattern. I even use the DG, 5-6000 yards works well. Obvious this is a night tactic.

Haul arse after the first hit or they see the torps. Escorts will head to where the torps came from, you should be long gone then, you should now have an exposed flank to attack with your next end around. Takes timing, but works great.

I'll often get found out at long range on purpose by radar, torp wake.
Usually I do it from the front of the group about 5000 yards to a flank.
When the escorts chasing get about 6000 yards I'll dive flank and head to my attack point. The escorts will go to where you dived, so go deep and fast and head away, if you can get 2000 yards away from where you dived before they get there, they probably won't find you. You should be able to come up and attack why the escorts are searching where you dived.

I figured out why I do not understand your method. What is DG? What is a position in front of the group (TF?) about 5,000 yds to a flank? Is that ahead of the TF and off to one side?

Maybe you can post as diagram of your method?

p.s. I am trying to learn ATO. It seems very interesting. Those that play it seemed hooked.

Armistead · 03-07-11, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

I figured out why I do not understand your method. What is DG? What is a position in front of the group (TF?) about 5,000 yds to a flank? Is that ahead of the TF and off to one side?

Maybe you can post as diagram of your method?

p.s. I am trying to learn ATO. It seems very interesting. Those that play it seemed hooked.

DG is deckgun. Sometimes I use it to slow a group down at night or pull escorts. You have to shoot from several thousand yards, but one hit, the group will go into zig mode and DD's usually come looking.

Doenitz2008 · 03-07-11, 02:19 PM

Wow. Thanks for all the tips. I'm going to give each and every one of them a try. And I will send that save game file for you to have a go at it, I've got a feeling you are going to make me feel like a fool, but hey thats how you learn....

PS: SOlo tried uploading it, I don't have access to upload yet. Once I do I will let you know...

03-06-11, 03:42 PM	#1
Doenitz2008 Watch Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 29 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	Fast TF Approach and Penetration Penetrating a convoy. I've located a huge CV TF. Conditions are : 0030, light winds, no fog, calm seas, and no moon. The TF is bearing 82, at a distance of 8.2 NM, heading SW, speed 21. The first contact is the lead DD of a DD picket consisting of 4 on the starboard side of the TF and 4 to port. The interior of the convoy consists of at least 1 CV and several CA's. I'm on my 8th patrol of a career which I am basically using for learning different targeting and approach techniques so I have multiple saves. I've tried various approaches and have not managed to get into the interior. The TF is going too fast for me to plot an end around intercept, plus it is in the Slot so I don't have a huge amount of distance to play with. I've tried approaching at 90 degrees as deep as possible. I got almost close enough for a firing solution into the first row, but I was getting pinged about 3-4 minutes before my target reached solution. I've tried approaching at a more obtuse angle, say 45 degrees, but again I was detected and this time way beyond a firing solution. Probably they detected me on passive sonar. I'm beginning to think that I might have just detected this TF at a much less than optimal initial setup and it might just be impossible to get into it. Seems that a successful attack on a fast moving TF is just as much a matter of being lucky in detecting it initially with a more optimal setup as it is with your approach to it. Any tips welcomed.

03-06-11, 04:14 PM	#2
gAiNiAc Weps Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 369 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	It's been a while since I've been here.......... but............. Get aggressive. Sucker the screen into charging you and charge the main body. If detection is a given then move in fast, get shots off then evade taking advantage of the chaos. Try and get a bead on the first ship of the main column. Hit her and the following ships will have to slow and avoid providing further targets of opportunity. __________________

03-06-11, 04:22 PM	#3
commandosolo2009 Grey Wolf Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Egypt Posts: 840 Downloads: 132 Uploads: 0	well, play it safe. If you have a save before current position while they're a while back, head further try to line up with the carrier. If you dont, dont bother, save your fuel, and report it to comsubpac. I'm sure you wont mind a deeper boat taking the Carrier out, since you're all part of the same team.. Another idea, is to establish their base course and move well ahead. If you're coming to a dead end, save your eels for merchants.., oh, and report to comsubpac.. Go get'em tiger!! __________________ x.com/lexatnews

03-06-11, 05:39 PM	#4
pabbi Subsim Overlord Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: On the top of the world Posts: 215 Downloads: 454 Uploads: 0	Conditions are : 0030, light winds, no fog, calm seas, and no moon. Are you sure you can´t get to them on surface. Say 45° angle. __________________ On the top of the world

03-06-11, 05:39 PM	#5
Doenitz2008 Watch Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 29 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	Not a chance I've pretty much tried every angle and the geometry just isn't working out. Bummer. If someone wants to have a go at it I'll send you a save game file.

03-06-11, 06:00 PM	#6
TorpX Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,975 Downloads: 153 Uploads: 11	I don't have a magic wand and I doubt there is one. In RL, finding a large TF was very unusual and sinking a capitol ship was even more so. Most sub skippers, even the successful ones, never got one. It is easy to forget that. As you found out, hitting a fast moving and well protected target is not easy (nor should it be). This is especially true when you start in an unfavorable position. The odds of success are usually better, if you start out ahead of the group (as you already figured out). My advice would be to make your best approach, and if you can't get close, make a long range shot. When it comes to capitol ships, even a very long shot is better than none at all. Happy Hunting!

03-06-11, 06:23 PM	#7
Diopos Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Athens, the original one. Posts: 1,226 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	If the TF is at a relative bearing 82° heading SW and fast try to maneuver for an aft shot. That is move in reverse and try for an O'Kane (or whatever angle attainable) with your aft tubes. . __________________ - Oh God! They're all over the place! CRASH DIVE!!! - Ehm... we can't honey. We're in the car right now. - What?... er right... Doesn't matter! We'll give it a try anyway!

03-06-11, 07:39 PM	#8
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	All you need to do is fire a torp from long range, M14, they see the wake, they'll slow down and go into a zig pattern. I even use the DG, 5-6000 yards works well. Obvious this is a night tactic. Haul arse after the first hit or they see the torps. Escorts will head to where the torps came from, you should be long gone then, you should now have an exposed flank to attack with your next end around. Takes timing, but works great. I'll often get found out at long range on purpose by radar, torp wake. Usually I do it from the front of the group about 5000 yards to a flank. When the escorts chasing get about 6000 yards I'll dive flank and head to my attack point. The escorts will go to where you dived, so go deep and fast and head away, if you can get 2000 yards away from where you dived before they get there, they probably won't find you. You should be able to come up and attack why the escorts are searching where you dived.

03-06-11, 08:32 PM	#9
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,369 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	Surface and use deck guns ya wuss! Seriously, this is an interesting tactical problem. Good luck in getting a good solution to it. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

03-07-11, 02:09 AM	#10
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	listen to armistead Armitead knosw what he is talkking about. I prefer to come in below the thermal lawyer if I am in deep water. Plot the TF course. Set up of O'Kane. Do not surface until the first dd passes your zero bearing. You will be in the TF perimeter and fire away. You can use manual targeting if you have time to fiddle with the range dials when you surface, but O'Kane is simpler. Shallow water. After plotting the TF course and speed, set up for manual targeting using the Easy Aob. Submerge and move to 3000 to 3,500 yds. Fire when the first dd crosses zero bearing and your target moves within range. Alternative, use the constant bearing technique. Manual targeting example. My machine crashed after I hit a Yamato in July, 44 with 5 torps at a running depth of 25 feet, and it did not sink. I got to replay the mission as a result, as the mission was not saved. The second time I hit it with 5 torps running at 32-34 feet. Range on both attack runs was 3,600 yds. The second time the Yamato sailed off...again. Two hours later, as my boat was chasing the dds that accompanied it, I caught sight of it at long range behind me. It was dead in the water. I circled back and hit it with three more torpedoes, making eight total hits. It went down, finally. I sailed back to port expecting the medal of honor, but all I ended up with when I docked was a promotion to a desk job....the war had ended!

03-07-11, 02:19 PM	#15
Doenitz2008 Watch Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 29 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	Tons of Great Advice Here Wow. Thanks for all the tips. I'm going to give each and every one of them a try. And I will send that save game file for you to have a go at it, I've got a feeling you are going to make me feel like a fool, but hey thats how you learn.... PS: SOlo tried uploading it, I don't have access to upload yet. Once I do I will let you know... Last edited by Doenitz2008; 03-07-11 at 04:25 PM.