[REQ] Japanese DD gun range check

keltos01 · 01-03-11, 12:32 PM

attacking an Asashio with the Surcouf (range 16000 m max 27 km) I couldn't help but notice that the DD only attacked me when they were 4000 y away, when their RL gun range was 21100 y !

http://www.combinedfleet.com/127_50.htm

Matsu : 3 x 5"/40 DP, Max. Range16,075 yards

Akizuki : 8 x 3.9"/65 DP, Max. Range21,300 yards

Yugumo : 6 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards

Shimakaze : 6 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards

Kagero : 6 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards

Asashio : : 6 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards

Shiratsuyu : 6 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards

Hatsuharu : : 5 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards

Akatsuki : : 6 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards

Fubuki : 6 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards

Mutsuki: 4 x 4.7"/45 DP,Max. Range17,500 yards

do the various mods/super mods take it into account ?

keltos

TorpX · 01-04-11, 03:44 AM

The 4,000yd range sounds reasonable. The max. ranges you list have little practical meaning. A sub, or any small boat would be difficult to hit. This would be especially true in rough seas. If they had no stablization or elaborate fire control mechanisms, 4,000yd might be optimistic.

Karle94 · 01-04-11, 04:13 AM

Japanese ships lacked proper fire control and radar. Getting in close would be logical if you don`t want to waste ammunition. Also you wanna get in close and fire, cause if you fire from far away the sub would dive and escape.

Jan Kyster · 01-04-11, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keltos01

attacking an Asashio with the Surcouf (range 16000 m max 27 km) I couldn't help but notice that the DD only attacked me when they were 4000 y away, when their RL gun range was 21100 y !

I just praise myself lucky not being a crew on your boat...

But isn't the gun range a setting in sim.cfg?

/edit: btw. Karle - that sig is so against forum rules. Way too big...

01-04-11, 11:35 AM

one thing to remember as well is the real range isnt always going to give you real numbers in the game so you cant just put in the real numbers and expect to see that in the game. often you must use very different numbers to get the correct realistic numbers in the game.the first thing you learn when modding this game is the numbers you use often arent the numbers you get in game

also max range isnt the best yard stick because its little more then blind luck at such ranges and most ships would try to close the range before firing to alert the sub to dive plus you need visual to adjust your aim so max range isnt going to allow this so you are firing blindly with no idea where your shells are going

01-04-11, 11:44 AM

plus if you want to replace the chrono in a mod then just delete the clock.dds file from that mod rather then the mod replaces it then you re-replace it with the original file you just replaced

it reduces mod conflict chances and the less you replace the more stable your game is

Armistead · 01-04-11, 11:57 AM

I know in TMO the DD's start firing at 6000 yards if they can get a visual on you.

Jan Kyster · 01-04-11, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

I know in TMO the DD's start firing at 6000 yards if they can get a visual on you.

And that is the AI firing range setting in TMO's sim.cfg

Reading Keltos' first post I remembered a german captain, was it Lüth?, stalking a convoy, when suddenly shells began dropping around him. With noone in sight anywhere - turned out to be an english destroyer using radar guided guns from +15.000 meters.

Now that would be cool in SHIV... I guess... kinda...

keltos01 · 01-04-11, 04:11 PM

but of course the japanese, though they had really good shipborne binoculars, didn't use their radar to guide their gunfire..

from what I saw at 9500 y the DD was halfway under the horizon, so they couldn't really see me, and many of my shots missed but since they were 8 inch shells, well only a few would sink a DD right ?

is it only realistic that a ship at 9500y would be halfway under the horizon ? is the earth curved this much ? or is it a sh4 limitation ?

keltos

Jan Kyster · 01-05-11, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keltos01

but of course the japanese, though they had really good shipborne binoculars, didn't use their radar to guide their gunfire..

from what I saw at 9500 y the DD was halfway under the horizon, so they couldn't really see me, and many of my shots missed but since they were 8 inch shells, well only a few would sink a DD right ?

is it only realistic that a ship at 9500y would be halfway under the horizon ? is the earth curved this much ? or is it a sh4 limitation ?

keltos

The japanese optical rangefinders would be placed very high up, but we'll have to find some blueprint to tell the exact position...
Personally I've always dived when the topsides are visible - if we can see that, then someone or something up there can see us... at least that's what I prefer to imagine.

I confess, I know absolutely nothing about french 8" shells - but can only imagine it would be a nasty experience being in the impact area...

When I sit in one of my favorite places in the harbour, I can see ships as they enter the bay (between Fanoe and Skallingen

) - that's a distance of about 9 km - and as my position above sealevel is about the same as being on a sub, I would say SHIV has it spot on... this planet is a really, really tiny thing.

From another spot at the southern end of the harbour I can clearly see the curvature - overlooking the tidal area, the marsk. 18 km away I can see only the very top of one the oldest churches in Denmark and it's 52 meters high ~ height of a battleship

/edit:
Here's a Shimakaze, where the rangefinder - and a lookout basket? - is clearly visible:

For larger image:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Taisho_11.jpg

If you're referring to the image here (Surcouf thread) http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=184 then you're clearly visible from their rangefinder. And should imho be under heavy fire...

Sledgehammer427 · 01-05-11, 03:06 AM

The lookout basket probably contained a spotter with a high-powered telescope to mark the falling of shots. That basket is about 80 feet up... about 26 meters. I don't know the math involved with the distance you can see from a perch that high, but, as previously mentioned, I think a destroyer would wait until they got much closer to open fire on a submarine.

Jan, I'm very envious of your location. A trip to anywhere close to the ocean would take around 4 hours from where I'm presiding now.

keltos01 · 01-05-11, 03:37 AM

[QUOTE=Jan Kyster;1566961]The japanese optical rangefinders would be placed very high up, but we'll have to find some blueprint to tell the exact position...

Personally I've always dived when the topsides are visible - if we can see that, then someone or something up there can see us... at least that's what I prefer to imagine.
well I thought since the Surcouf had those big guns...

then again yesterday I won a fight against a DD in a single mission where you recon a harbor (and find 3 carriers - all down thanks to the 24v torpedoes) but sank when I crash dived.. ! I was full of holes...

I confess, I know absolutely nothing about french 8" shells - but can only imagine it would be a nasty experience being in the impact area...

yep, a nasty experience to say the least !

When I sit in one of my favorite places in the harbour, I can see ships as they enter the bay (between Fanoe and Skallingen

)
beautiful place ! lucky you ! I just went and took a look on :
http://www.visitfanoe.dk/internation...ebilleder.htm#

- that's a distance of about 9 km - and as my position above sealevel is about the same as being on a sub, I would say SHIV has it spot on... this planet is a really, really tiny thing.
right ! I remember now watching ships go by in Knokke, but i didn't know how far they were, true that outside the range of my binoculars they kindo disappeared...

From another spot at the southern end of the harbour I can clearly see the curvature - overlooking the tidal area, the marsk. 18 km away I can see only the very top of one the oldest churches in Denmark and it's 52 meters high ~ height of a battleship

/edit:
Here's a Shimakaze, where the rangefinder - and a lookout basket? - is clearly visible:

For larger image:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Taisho_11.jpg

If you're referring to the image here (Surcouf thread) http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=184
indeed...

then you're clearly visible from their rangefinder. And should imho be under heavy fire...

same basket on the Yukikaze :

larger image

can we change one destroyer type only, then have someone make a single mission with her, and see what gives ?

I can't make missions

keltos

Jan Kyster · 01-05-11, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer427

Jan, I'm very envious of your location. A trip to anywhere close to the ocean would take around 4 hours from where I'm presiding now.

A 4 hour trip in any direction in this ridiculously small country and you'll be in the ocean...

But I know what you mean. Couldn't live without the sea. And it's nice to play SHIV and hear seagulls outside the windows...

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=esbjer...ed=0CBQQ8gEwAA

/edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by keltos01

can we change one destroyer type only, then have someone make a single mission with her, and see what gives ?

Give me a minute - have nothing else to do while waiting for my monitor to arrive...

Here you go: http://www.mediafire.com/file/mlgtzg...0Battle%21.zip
Just a quick and dirty. On collisioncourse with an Asashio... those 8"... wow!

But can't get anyone to fire beyond 6000 meters? Despite changing sim.cfg - must be defined somewhere else

keltos01 · 01-05-11, 04:57 AM

ok

take your pick of a destroyer
better one with the longer range guns

regards

keltos

keltos01 · 01-05-11, 05:27 AM

Asashio uses :

node 15 in guns_radar.dat

0x80a9a98ee5b6a239 5in_Double_base_Jp

in.sim :

max range = 18380 m

storage :

250 AP
250 AA

in RL :

Asashio : : 6 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards

keltos

01-03-11, 12:32 PM	#1
keltos01 Silent Hunter Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Milan Italy Posts: 4,999 Downloads: 114 Uploads: 18	[REQ] Japanese DD gun range check attacking an Asashio with the Surcouf (range 16000 m max 27 km) I couldn't help but notice that the DD only attacked me when they were 4000 y away, when their RL gun range was 21100 y ! http://www.combinedfleet.com/127_50.htm Matsu : 3 x 5"/40 DP, Max. Range16,075 yards Akizuki : 8 x 3.9"/65 DP, Max. Range21,300 yards Yugumo : 6 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards Shimakaze : 6 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards Kagero : 6 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards Asashio : : 6 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards Shiratsuyu : 6 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards Hatsuharu : : 5 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards Akatsuki : : 6 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards Fubuki : 6 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards Mutsuki: 4 x 4.7"/45 DP,Max. Range17,500 yards do the various mods/super mods take it into account ? keltos __________________ "Honorable Builder of Sinking Ships" Last edited by keltos01; 01-03-11 at 12:53 PM.

01-04-11, 03:44 AM	#2
TorpX Silent Hunter Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3,975 Downloads: 153 Uploads: 11	gun range The 4,000yd range sounds reasonable. The max. ranges you list have little practical meaning. A sub, or any small boat would be difficult to hit. This would be especially true in rough seas. If they had no stablization or elaborate fire control mechanisms, 4,000yd might be optimistic.

01-04-11, 04:13 AM	#3
Karle94 The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Norseland Posts: 1,355 Downloads: 253 Uploads: 0	Japanese ships lacked proper fire control and radar. Getting in close would be logical if you don`t want to waste ammunition. Also you wanna get in close and fire, cause if you fire from far away the sub would dive and escape. __________________ Find my mods here: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/lzgciodldp58p/SH4_Mods My SH4 blog here: http://karle94.blogspot.com/

01-04-11, 04:11 PM	#9
keltos01 Silent Hunter Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Milan Italy Posts: 4,999 Downloads: 114 Uploads: 18	but of course the japanese, though they had really good shipborne binoculars, didn't use their radar to guide their gunfire.. from what I saw at 9500 y the DD was halfway under the horizon, so they couldn't really see me, and many of my shots missed but since they were 8 inch shells, well only a few would sink a DD right ? is it only realistic that a ship at 9500y would be halfway under the horizon ? is the earth curved this much ? or is it a sh4 limitation ? keltos __________________ "Honorable Builder of Sinking Ships"

01-05-11, 03:06 AM	#11
Sledgehammer427 PacWagon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Drinking coffee and staring at trees in Massachusetts Posts: 2,901 Downloads: 280 Uploads: 0	The lookout basket probably contained a spotter with a high-powered telescope to mark the falling of shots. That basket is about 80 feet up... about 26 meters. I don't know the math involved with the distance you can see from a perch that high, but, as previously mentioned, I think a destroyer would wait until they got much closer to open fire on a submarine. Jan, I'm very envious of your location. A trip to anywhere close to the ocean would take around 4 hours from where I'm presiding now. __________________ Cold Waters Voice Crew - Fire Control Officer Cmdr O. Myers - C/O USS Nautilus (SS-168) 114,000 tons sunk - 4 Spec Ops completed V-boat Nutcase - Need supplies? Japanese garrison on a small island in the way? Just give us a call! D4C!

01-04-11, 11:35 AM	#5
Webster Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	one thing to remember as well is the real range isnt always going to give you real numbers in the game so you cant just put in the real numbers and expect to see that in the game. often you must use very different numbers to get the correct realistic numbers in the game.the first thing you learn when modding this game is the numbers you use often arent the numbers you get in game also max range isnt the best yard stick because its little more then blind luck at such ranges and most ships would try to close the range before firing to alert the sub to dive plus you need visual to adjust your aim so max range isnt going to allow this so you are firing blindly with no idea where your shells are going

01-04-11, 11:44 AM	#6
Webster Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	plus if you want to replace the chrono in a mod then just delete the clock.dds file from that mod rather then the mod replaces it then you re-replace it with the original file you just replaced it reduces mod conflict chances and the less you replace the more stable your game is

01-04-11, 11:57 AM	#7
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,865 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	I know in TMO the DD's start firing at 6000 yards if they can get a visual on you.

01-05-11, 03:37 AM	#12
keltos01 Silent Hunter Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Milan Italy Posts: 4,999 Downloads: 114 Uploads: 18	[QUOTE=Jan Kyster;1566961]The japanese optical rangefinders would be placed very high up, but we'll have to find some blueprint to tell the exact position... Personally I've always dived when the topsides are visible - if we can see that, then someone or something up there can see us... at least that's what I prefer to imagine. well I thought since the Surcouf had those big guns... then again yesterday I won a fight against a DD in a single mission where you recon a harbor (and find 3 carriers - all down thanks to the 24v torpedoes) but sank when I crash dived.. ! I was full of holes... I confess, I know absolutely nothing about french 8" shells - but can only imagine it would be a nasty experience being in the impact area... yep, a nasty experience to say the least ! When I sit in one of my favorite places in the harbour, I can see ships as they enter the bay (between Fanoe and Skallingen ) beautiful place ! lucky you ! I just went and took a look on : http://www.visitfanoe.dk/internation...ebilleder.htm# - that's a distance of about 9 km - and as my position above sealevel is about the same as being on a sub, I would say SHIV has it spot on... this planet is a really, really tiny thing. right ! I remember now watching ships go by in Knokke, but i didn't know how far they were, true that outside the range of my binoculars they kindo disappeared... From another spot at the southern end of the harbour I can clearly see the curvature - overlooking the tidal area, the marsk. 18 km away I can see only the very top of one the oldest churches in Denmark and it's 52 meters high ~ height of a battleship /edit: Here's a Shimakaze, where the rangefinder - and a lookout basket? - is clearly visible: For larger image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Taisho_11.jpg If you're referring to the image here (Surcouf thread) http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=184 indeed... then you're clearly visible from their rangefinder. And should imho be under heavy fire... same basket on the Yukikaze : larger image can we change one destroyer type only, then have someone make a single mission with her, and see what gives ? I can't make missions keltos __________________ "Honorable Builder of Sinking Ships"

01-05-11, 04:57 AM	#14
keltos01 Silent Hunter Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Milan Italy Posts: 4,999 Downloads: 114 Uploads: 18	ok take your pick of a destroyer better one with the longer range guns regards keltos __________________ "Honorable Builder of Sinking Ships"

01-05-11, 05:27 AM	#15
keltos01 Silent Hunter Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Milan Italy Posts: 4,999 Downloads: 114 Uploads: 18	Asashio uses : node 15 in guns_radar.dat 0x80a9a98ee5b6a239 5in_Double_base_Jp in.sim : max range = 18380 m storage : 250 AP 250 AA in RL : Asashio : : 6 x 5"/50 DP, Max. Range20,100 yards keltos __________________ "Honorable Builder of Sinking Ships"