History is written by the victor

Krauter · 12-09-10, 03:08 AM

My question is this;

Obviously, every history lesson we learn is a little subjective merely because we're getting one side of the story (mainly the victors side saying "those guys are villains, yadda yadda yadda and we won and kicked their @ss..).

Now we've all seen and loved shows and movies depicting the Allies (mostly American) in World War Two. Now I understand this, as the main producer is located in America, main target audience is Americans.

BUT, we see submarine depictions of BOTH sides (of the Atlantic) in movies like U-5?? (bloody hell its late..), Das Boot, Run Silent Run Deep, etc.

My question is this, based on the fact that there are submarine movies depicting both allied and german efforts during the war, why is there (or if there is, why have i never heard of it

) movies depicting the actions of the Wehrmacht and (dare I say it) SS *Panzer Corps*. Obviously I'm not interested in it for any attrocities they've done, but I'm wondering on this late night why there are no movies depicting the combat prowess of Wehrmacht, Fallschrimjager, and any other German troops during WW2?

What are your thoughts on this?

VipertheSniper · 12-09-10, 04:32 AM

I honestly tried to write an answer, but it's pretty hard thinking outside that box, that was built around us with all those movies. The only thing I can imagine is, that you'd have to find a well known operation that was a success, but didn't acchieve all it's goals, which in turn bit the Germans in the ass... So I guess the Run to Dunkirk from the German side would be something that could be done, but the Germans overrunning France or Poland, from the German side, don't think that's gonna happen.

I-25 · 12-09-10, 04:49 AM

look up the movie Stalingrad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalingrad_%28film%29

Penguin · 12-09-10, 06:55 AM

Not an uninteresting topic, I must say.

If you are only talking about films then I can recommend you some - besides the already mentioned Stalingrad (watch it! good movie!)
Cross of Iron from 1977 shows some combat on the Eastern Front from the perspective of an ordinary german Unteroffizier.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Iron (warning: spoilers in the plot section)

Its sucessor, Breakthrough, takes part on the Western Front, shortly before the Allied landings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_%28film%29

Then there is the classic movie "Die Brücke" (The Bridge). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Br%C3%BCcke_%28film%29 Not much combat there, but a very impressive film taking part in the last days of the war and showing the attempt of indoctrinated teenage soldiers to defend a bridge against the approchaing Americans. A very immersive and impressive film. Watch out however, there has been made a remake some years ago: don't even think about watching it!

And if you want to see the (always

) winning Wehrmachtm, then there are of course a lot of "Wochenschau" out on the video platform of your choice.

If you are talking about books then there has been a lot of stuff coming out in the last two decades, mainly about the fate of the ordinary German civilians, but also some good books written from the perspective of normal soldiers. These issues have been covered before only by reactionary/neonazi writers and so the intention of these books is that we can't let these morons dominate the "research" of this topic, but cover in from a neutral point of view.

If you are interested I will have to look up which books have been translated into English or French and can get back to you. Some popular writings are available by the amateur historian Guido Knopp, they may be a good way to start.

Personally I would really like to see some stuff from the view of the Japanese, but there seems to be a deficit on books covering this - and a political motivated lack of will to work up their history.

VipertheSniper · 12-09-10, 07:37 AM

Oh I can't believe how I forgot this... there's a trilogy that is basically about the whole war from a German perspective, but I doubt it's available in English, maybe with subtitles: "08/15". Made in the 50's or I think, b/w.

Link to the first part on imdb
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046671/

Not much info apart from this review:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Review of the 1st Part on imdb

This movie isn't actually a war movie but covers the life of German conscripts on the eve of the second world war. They are in the hands of ruthless and sadistic NCOs who are constantly trying to impose harsh measures against the men. The officers on the contrary are shown much more civilized and see themselves somehow as a father-figure. The tension between the privates and their superiors forms hard bonds of friendship between them, although they come from very different social backgrounds. Private Vierbein and Gefreiter Asch are the two protagonists of this film. Vierbein is a sensible piano-player that detests the rudeness and the lack of privacy in the barracks. However he is deeply in love with Asch's sister, who is a full-propagandized Nazi-BDM-girl and demands of him to become an officer. In this tension, he attempts suicide on the shooting range but is hindered by Asch. With Vierbeins stolen ammunition and deep knowledge of the internal processes, the practical and clever Asch is able to land a brilliant coup and to get his nasty superiors all removed from the unit. The film ends with the beginning of the second world war. Many stereotypes about the different ranks were included in the film and in some cases they were played out excessively. Still many German soldiers may find similarities from some of their own experience.

the 2nd Part is about the war (winter 1941/42 on the Eastern Front)
the 3rd Part about coming home

GoldenRivet · 12-09-10, 09:16 AM

I think the kriegsmarine gets so many movies because if i remember correctly, they were the only branch of service that was never required to adopt a lot of the NAZI ideology

Penguin · 12-09-10, 09:35 AM

You may want to check out about Oskar Kusch:
http://www.ijnhonline.org/volume1_nu..._uboat.doc.htm
http://www.uboat.net/men/kusch.htm
(Prost to Oskar, who stayed a thinking man!)

Kusch's fate may have inspired Buchheim for the person of the 1.WO in Das Boot
Even if the approach towards nazi ideology may have seem a little more lax on an u-boat, there were no branches of the forces taht were an island in the brown swamp.

Growler · 12-09-10, 10:48 AM

Wow... now this is an interesting can of worms you've opened here, Krauter.

As a historian, I have learned a lot of amazing stuff from the "loser's" perspectives, both warfare and more peaceful pursuits.

I learned, for instance, that the Soviets kept German PWs for MUCH longer than the Western Allies did; German PWs were still dying in the hundreds in Soviet camps three years after the "end" of War Two. I never knew this until recently.

German PWs in America were treated better than in any other nation (largely due to the fact that the US wasn't being bombed or naval-blockaded) with the hopes that word would get back to German unit, encouraging not only their surrender, but also better treatment for Americans in German PW camps.

Now, would any of this make a good movie? In today's Hollywood climate, probably not likely, unless you could convince Tom Hanks and Steven Spielberg that such a film from the German perspective would matter. Schindler's List was huge because it focused on the Holocaust; there aren't too many studios that would be willing to risk the publicity backlash that they think would result if they released a movie that portrayed wartime Germans in a sympathetic light. Not saying it hasn't happened; just saying that it's a risky venture.

I could talk about this for hours, but I am supposed to be working.

August · 12-09-10, 11:14 AM

Even John Wayne did a movie where he played a (good guy) German ship captain being chased by the Royal Navy.

Jimbuna · 12-09-10, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Even John Wayne did a movie where he played a (good guy) German ship captain being chased by the Royal Navy.

The Sea Chase

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048593/

Krauter · 12-09-10, 12:08 PM

Exactly Growler.

On the point of the Soviets keeping Germans interned far longer than normal, there are accounts of people not getting let out of the Gulags until the mid 50's, and even then they didn't make it out because they couldn't get travel visas to travel within the USSR or get outside of it.

On the point of the movies, to me I can understand if producers want to stay away because of the holocaust, war attrocities light. In our day and age I can understand that. However, watching movies like Saving Pvt Ryan, Band of Brothers, etc showing the camraderie, fighting spirit and tactics of the units makes me think, "gee, the germans had some of the most elite and trained Army units in the war... I wonder how they acted and fought together?"

If anything I'd say depict fighting on the Eastern Front for the simple reason Americans and Brits probably don't want to watch a movie in which American or Brits are being killed. But fighting on the Eastern Front was a whole different Beast all together with many attrocities being committed daily..

Cheers,

Krauter

And I too should be getting back to work. Another 1,000-1,500 words for this essay by tonight as well as a Final to study for tomorrow

Growler · 12-09-10, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krauter

Exactly Growler.
...showing the camraderie, fighting spirit and tactics of the units makes me think, "gee, the germans had some of the most elite and trained Army units in the war... I wonder how they acted and fought together?"

In short, the answer is, "Yes" though the volume of material to support that answer is small, usually in German, and heavily laced with the propaganda at the time. But certain assumptions can be safely made when consideration is taken of units like Peiper's Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler and the mission entrusted to them in Wacht am Rhein, as well as Skorzeny's Kommando unit. Despite the war circumstances, both those units still had high esprit de corps and morale.

You will find some passages in texts today that do a little of that; The Longest Winter (Alex Kershaw) includes at least some mention of some of the troops in the Fallshirmjager unit that was held up by LT Bouck's I&R Platoon of the 394th on 16 Dec 44 at Lanzerath. Most of the impression is from the American side, but there are a few Germans who related their parts of the story with candor.

Probably one of the better WW2 books I've read lately, it is the story of Bouck's platoon, but it weaves in the greater theater-wide story as backdrop. Pick it up sometime for a good read.

TLAM Strike · 12-09-10, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krauter

BUT, we see submarine depictions of BOTH sides (of the Atlantic) in movies like U-5?? (bloody hell its late..), Das Boot, Run Silent Run Deep, etc.

Run Silent, Run Deep was the Pacific, and only from the American Perspective.

You are most likely thinking of The Enemy Below.

BTW I loved Cross of Iron, its a German Perspective movie.

The only other one I can remember seeing (Other than Das Boot) was Tom Cruse's Valkyrie. Which wasn't too bad.

Sailor Steve · 12-09-10, 01:03 PM

Rommel.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043461/

frau kaleun · 12-09-10, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Rommel.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043461/

Eh, it's okay, but nothing spectacular IMO, despite starring James Mason (who I adore).

I was disappointed at how closely it followed the book - meaning, the movie felt to me like they just filmed the book "as is," instead of taking the book's subject matter and crafting a really fine movie based on it. Since I'd already read the book the movie kind of left me flat... it seemed like just a series of vignettes dramatizing a few major moments in Rommel's life, strung together by a lot of voiceover narration representing the book's author (and a lot of the narration was taken, IIRC, almost word for word from the book).

12-09-10, 09:16 AM	#6
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	I think the kriegsmarine gets so many movies because if i remember correctly, they were the only branch of service that was never required to adopt a lot of the NAZI ideology __________________

12-09-10, 10:48 AM	#8
Growler A long way from the sea Join Date: May 2005 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,913 Downloads: 21 Uploads: 0	Wow... now this is an interesting can of worms you've opened here, Krauter. As a historian, I have learned a lot of amazing stuff from the "loser's" perspectives, both warfare and more peaceful pursuits. I learned, for instance, that the Soviets kept German PWs for MUCH longer than the Western Allies did; German PWs were still dying in the hundreds in Soviet camps three years after the "end" of War Two. I never knew this until recently. German PWs in America were treated better than in any other nation (largely due to the fact that the US wasn't being bombed or naval-blockaded) with the hopes that word would get back to German unit, encouraging not only their surrender, but also better treatment for Americans in German PW camps. Now, would any of this make a good movie? In today's Hollywood climate, probably not likely, unless you could convince Tom Hanks and Steven Spielberg that such a film from the German perspective would matter. Schindler's List was huge because it focused on the Holocaust; there aren't too many studios that would be willing to risk the publicity backlash that they think would result if they released a movie that portrayed wartime Germans in a sympathetic light. Not saying it hasn't happened; just saying that it's a risky venture. I could talk about this for hours, but I am supposed to be working. __________________ At Fiddler’s Green, where seamen true When here they’ve done their duty The bowl of grog shall still renew And pledge to love and beauty.

12-09-10, 11:14 AM	#9
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 23,197 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Even John Wayne did a movie where he played a (good guy) German ship captain being chased by the Royal Navy. __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.

12-09-10, 01:03 PM	#14
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Rommel. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043461/ __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

12-09-10, 04:32 AM	#2
VipertheSniper Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Austria Posts: 1,070 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I honestly tried to write an answer, but it's pretty hard thinking outside that box, that was built around us with all those movies. The only thing I can imagine is, that you'd have to find a well known operation that was a success, but didn't acchieve all it's goals, which in turn bit the Germans in the ass... So I guess the Run to Dunkirk from the German side would be something that could be done, but the Germans overrunning France or Poland, from the German side, don't think that's gonna happen.

12-09-10, 04:49 AM	#3
I-25 Commodore Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bavaria, Germany Posts: 629 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	look up the movie Stalingrad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalingrad_%28film%29

12-09-10, 06:55 AM	#4
Penguin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Rheinische Republik Posts: 3,322 Downloads: 92 Uploads: 0	Not an uninteresting topic, I must say. If you are only talking about films then I can recommend you some - besides the already mentioned Stalingrad (watch it! good movie!) Cross of Iron from 1977 shows some combat on the Eastern Front from the perspective of an ordinary german Unteroffizier. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Iron (warning: spoilers in the plot section) Its sucessor, Breakthrough, takes part on the Western Front, shortly before the Allied landings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_%28film%29 Then there is the classic movie "Die Brücke" (The Bridge). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Br%C3%BCcke_%28film%29 Not much combat there, but a very impressive film taking part in the last days of the war and showing the attempt of indoctrinated teenage soldiers to defend a bridge against the approchaing Americans. A very immersive and impressive film. Watch out however, there has been made a remake some years ago: don't even think about watching it! And if you want to see the (always ) winning Wehrmachtm, then there are of course a lot of "Wochenschau" out on the video platform of your choice. If you are talking about books then there has been a lot of stuff coming out in the last two decades, mainly about the fate of the ordinary German civilians, but also some good books written from the perspective of normal soldiers. These issues have been covered before only by reactionary/neonazi writers and so the intention of these books is that we can't let these morons dominate the "research" of this topic, but cover in from a neutral point of view. If you are interested I will have to look up which books have been translated into English or French and can get back to you. Some popular writings are available by the amateur historian Guido Knopp, they may be a good way to start. Personally I would really like to see some stuff from the view of the Japanese, but there seems to be a deficit on books covering this - and a political motivated lack of will to work up their history.

12-09-10, 09:35 AM	#7
Penguin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Rheinische Republik Posts: 3,322 Downloads: 92 Uploads: 0	You may want to check out about Oskar Kusch: http://www.ijnhonline.org/volume1_nu..._uboat.doc.htm http://www.uboat.net/men/kusch.htm (Prost to Oskar, who stayed a thinking man!) Kusch's fate may have inspired Buchheim for the person of the 1.WO in Das Boot Even if the approach towards nazi ideology may have seem a little more lax on an u-boat, there were no branches of the forces taht were an island in the brown swamp.