TMO and dd evasion--my technique fails.

I'm goin' down · 11-08-10, 10:25 PM

Recently, I have been setting up at a range of 3,500 - 4,500 yds using the the constant bearing technique described in rock n' shoals post in the Subskippers Bag of Tricks thread. I am striking against TFs, the main line of which is at that range, straddled on both sides by Ducimus' famous dds and escorts, which parallel the main line on each side by approximately 1,000 - 3,000 yds. Out of six shots at two or three targets on the main line, usually cruisers, battleships or carriers, I hit one vessel, and come quite close to hitting the other target(s). I will settle for that, as the targets are all high risk, and are heavy tonnage. Regardless, the protective dd cordon ends with a radar track on my boat, even if it has dived before the unleashed torpedoes impact the chosen target(s). DDs have found my boat at a depth of 600 ft., and sunk it. Firing beyond a range of 4,500 yds with accuracy is difficult, as a slight miscalcualtion of speed, Aob or firing point makes a difference at long range. I know there are some who say the TMO dds are not a big deal and can be avoided. I don't believe them. If I angle my boat towards the oncoming task force to yield a smaller radar profile to the oncoming dds and escorts, the firing angle to the target yields a smaller aspect ratio, thus making accurate long range shots (i.e. ones that his the target) quite difficult, so that does not appear a feasible solution, even if it helps avoid the dd cordon. I may avoid being sunk, but the trade off is that I probably won't hit anything.

Any reasonable suggestions to this dilemma.

By the way the October 15, 1944 career start missions will lead to large TFs on their way to Luzon. The problem is that Ducimus' dds will be on guard, their crews are on caffeine overdose, and they usually screw up the party.

Armistead · 11-09-10, 08:27 AM

If you're playing RSRD, it sets the factors for the crews, poor-elite, not TMO. However, I don't think it effects the sensors of TMO, so still fairly tough.

Have you installed the IJN radar fix by tater, doe's help some as far as them picking you up on radar much further.

In rough water I'll come at the TF straight on between the lead escort and the flank escort, with the goal of turning it to a 45 degree attack. Usually this means I have to shoot at the further line of targets as one line is almost on top of me. Course a few times I've been ran over with my scope up by large ships, so try to be careful.

I seldom have a problem getting my attack off at close range. Usually I'll get pinged or found out soon after. My goal is to get my shots off before I'm found out. I don't dive deep until my attack is done. If I get pinged, I'm gonna stay flank and get my attack off if possible. The only issue I have is being stuck with some bad gyro's, but I've gotten fairly good with them. You can forget most target shooting methods, you stad it, guess where it's going and setup for where you want torp placement and then I'll unlock and shoot by the wire.

Ive never had any luck with all the various shooting methods attacking TF. It sets you to a holding pattern that often places you in front of a DD.

The good thing about RSRD is the TF are more spread out and often a wider escort screen. Often in calm waters I'll let them pick me up on radar so several escorts come a running. When they get about 8000 yards I'll dive and go flank and deep heading to my attack point. Don't let them catch you on radar where you want to shoot from. Usually a group of DD's are in my stern searchin where I dived leaving a flank exposed for me to attack from. Simply I'll be in front of the target about 10nms about 5000 yards off my attack point. I sit there until the escorts come and dive flank deep until I get to my attack point. The goal is to put 3000 yards between my arse and the searching escorts where I dived, then I can usually come up without them finding me.

With cams and contacts off just make sure you mark where you dived and where you want to be when you shoot. The mark where you dived should be where the escorts will be searcing for you. If you can get to your shooting point without being pinged, success. If you're being pinged, hard to know if it's safe to come up when you're stuck in the sub. If they have me on longscale, I'll chance it, shortscale, head for deep water.

Still, best plans can be foiled. Sometimes it's best to wait. The good thing about RSRD is most TF return along the path they came. My biggest mistake is getting greedy, often it works, sometimes not. I've blown some good setups trying to hit say 4 capital ships, when I should've settled for two. My goal is to sink one and atleast damage another so the TF will slow down, making the next end around easier. I'm sure I miss as much as anyone.

I've always found speed and depth to be the factor in living. If you're gonna run at silent at 1kt, your gonna die with TMO.

I'm goin' down · 11-09-10, 11:34 AM

I assume you are attacking while moving towards the TF? Is PK on? If not, are you using Cromwell, Rock n Shoals constant bearing method, or some other technique?

Bubblehead1980 · 11-09-10, 04:26 PM

Keeping about 20 degrees rudder on with 1-2 knots, making a constant slow turn throws the escorts off, they dont know your path and lose contact.When they are roaring overhead, put your rudder amidships and go ahead flank for thirty seconds, the DD's noises cover yours, then all stop and put on 20 degrees rudder in the OPPOSITE direction it was before you went ahead flank.Do this for a few runs, it usually confuses the DD's and they will lose you.Takes some nerve esp with cams and contacts off but it works.

Armistead · 11-09-10, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

I assume you are attacking while moving towards the TF? Is PK on? If not, are you using Cromwell, Rock n Shoals constant bearing method, or some other technique?

Usually I want to dive about 3000-5000 yards to the flank of the coming TF if I plan to pull the escorts away. Much harder to do with cams off, so I'll try to get a good track and mark my attack position. More often than not unless water is way rough, I'll pull the escorts out by letting them get me with radar or even chance a visual if needed. Sometime I even have to ping the group a few times, but that works even better giving me range. That's why you need to mark where you dive, because that's where the escorts will be searching, plus a mark where you hope to attack from. You want to pull the escorts away as far from the group as you can, if they come a running from 10nms, that's great, dive and haul arse to your attack point. If you wait too long the TF may go by.

The main thing is when you dive to haul arse and escape the circle the escorts will be searching. Usually I'll atleast go past the thermal layer. If sonar tells me they're still at my dive mark I know I can come up to scope depth, but you have to time it where you can reach your attack point, but the TF will go into zigs and slow down giving you more time. If you're being pinged, you didn't get far enough away from the hunters...then it's a chance.

If not doing this I try to set myself 1000 yards to the flank of the lead escort and come straight at that mark, helming my bow slowly towards him. I will try to get speed and course with stad and lock on so I'll have some clue before I get too close. Usually you know when you're close. Main thing is to listen with sonar for that lead escort to pass, that's time to come up and shoot. Hopefully the lead escort will be gone anyway searching your dive spot. Again, any fixed attack method that holds you to a course is dangerous. Nothing against all the OKane type attacks, they have a place, but if your goal becomes to stay on a fixed course, you're gonna get pinged by the flank escort.

Obvious when you come up ships will be zigging different speeds, so it's picking targets and two good stad points then easy aob for course and speed, then unlock and shoot by the wire. I'll shoot all torps and dive and head flank so I can again leave where the escorts will come hunting.

Obvious if I'm using cams I can just steer with the cam and watch everything, which is rather easy, but I play both ways depending on time, but still use same tactics.

Here is my attack with the Yamato where I had to do 3 end arounds, you can sort of get the idea. At least twice when I attacked the Yamato a few escorts were way off searching where I dived off the flank. You can basically see how I stad and shoot by the wire, which I think you understand being a fan of ez aob, in fact I think you turned me on to it.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=175983

I'm goin' down · 11-11-10, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

Usually I want to dive about 3000-5000 yards to the flank of the coming TF if I plan to pull the escorts away. Much harder to do with cams off, so I'll try to get a good track and mark my attack position. More often than not unless water is way rough, I'll pull the escorts out by letting them get me with radar or even chance a visual if needed. Sometime I even have to ping the group a few times, but that works even better giving me range. That's why you need to mark where you dive, because that's where the escorts will be searching, plus a mark where you hope to attack from. You want to pull the escorts away as far from the group as you can, if they come a running from 10nms, that's great, dive and haul arse to your attack point. If you wait too long the TF may go by.

The main thing is when you dive to haul arse and escape the circle the escorts will be searching. Usually I'll atleast go past the thermal layer. If sonar tells me they're still at my dive mark I know I can come up to scope depth, but you have to time it where you can reach your attack point, but the TF will go into zigs and slow down giving you more time. If you're being pinged, you didn't get far enough away from the hunters...then it's a chance.

If not doing this I try to set myself 1000 yards to the flank of the lead escort and come straight at that mark, helming my bow slowly towards him. I will try to get speed and course with stad and lock on so I'll have some clue before I get too close. Usually you know when you're close. Main thing is to listen with sonar for that lead escort to pass, that's time to come up and shoot. Hopefully the lead escort will be gone anyway searching your dive spot. Again, any fixed attack method that holds you to a course is dangerous. Nothing against all the OKane type attacks, they have a place, but if your goal becomes to stay on a fixed course, you're gonna get pinged by the flank escort.

Obvious when you come up ships will be zigging different speeds, so it's picking targets and two good stad points then easy aob for course and speed, then unlock and shoot by the wire. I'll shoot all torps and dive and head flank so I can again leave where the escorts will come hunting.

Obvious if I'm using cams I can just steer with the cam and watch everything, which is rather easy, but I play both ways depending on time, but still use same tactics.

Here is my attack with the Yamato where I had to do 3 end arounds, you can sort of get the idea. At least twice when I attacked the Yamato a few escorts were way off searching where I dived off the flank. You can basically see how I stad and shoot by the wire, which I think you understand being a fan of ez aob, in fact I think you turned me on to it.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=175983

Okay. I have shook off the dds and escrorts by submerging and surfacing between where they spotted me and the TF track. But the TF is moving fast. If I set up for constant bearing or O'Kane, you indicate I will be discovered. I assume you are turning on the PK and using manual targeting while closing on the TF after you have resurfaced at your predesignated position. This mean you have to have the track of the TF, identified the target's, entered speed and course, and determined range. (ie. I assume you are using the Easy Aob mod). How do you find time to do that when the TF can be doing over 20 kts? In one Lyete Gulf battle I calculated the TF speed at 33 kts. Note I set up at approximately 4,500 yds off the TF track and well ahead of it. I dive and resurface uon being spotted at around 2,000 yds. According to your post I should continue to close as I fire torpedoes. Between the time I dive and resurface the TF is really close, and their is insufficient time to use the 3 minute rule for speed and course calculations. How should I attack?

Armistead · 11-11-10, 07:11 PM

For one I will have the base speed long before I attack, when cams offs using radar mod or just a guess based on if I can parallel it's course and match speed, pass it, ect. Most TF run at 17-19kts. Usually I let them find me on radar and will run from the group so they will go into zig mode, that slows them down and I will run away until the escorts turn back and track my end around.

When I want to attack I will have course by making marks and using the tools to figure his base track, again using radar mod or if contacts on rather simple, no need to explain.

The only TF I've seen hit 30kts of more are the fast dd groups in the slot, but I attack them all the time as they come in one line.

Usually when I pull the DD's away and dive I hope to be 3-5000 yards off my attack track and not come back to surface. I did surface once in my Y attack because I was able, but that's rare.. If you can pull the escorts away at about 5nm's I've never had a problem diving going flank and putting them 3000 yards behind me hunting out of sonar range. If a TF is going faster say 24kts...you still should be able to travel 1500 yards at flank before they can reach 5nms, giving you a 1500 yard shot.

Sort of think of it as a triangle. The TF the tip coming down the left line, the escorts coming faster down the right line and you the bottom line right moving left wanting to be where the left line connects your base before the TF gets there and the escorts should be searching at the base right line when you attack.

When I attack, I'm setting up a normal two stad measurments for course and speed, leave PK locked, unlock scope, reset bearing at the bow and shoot by the wire. The group should be zigging, you may even get into the middle of it before you need to shoot and can use all tubes on several targets. Often you'll have to guess AOB based on his zig pattern, not what it is at the moment.

I'm goin' down · 11-11-10, 10:13 PM

17 miles due north of Samar from the center of the Island, the Jap Fleet was travelling at 32-33 kts. heading in a south easterly direction. On their return trip, it was travelling at 22-23 kts. I fired a blind salvo at around 8,000yds and had three hits on a BB (a true once in a lifetime strike.) The torepdoes were set for less than 10 ft running depth and did not slow the target down. The TF was travelling two rows and was LARGE, completely ringed by escorts.

Armistead · 11-12-10, 05:59 AM

I've never seen that group going that fast... I assume you're talking about Kurita's fleet coming through the San Bern, which is a good place to ambush it. If you're playing RSRD the fastest easternly leg is 22kts coming through the the Sibuyan Sea through the San Bern. Once it exits it shows it going 27kts heading SSE towards the US jeep carriers, on the return leg, back to 22kts. Obvious if it spots you, it should zig slowing down to probably 17kts. This group had both Y classes, is that what you hit? Also has a few Kongo's and one Fuso. The ratings on all the ships in this group, including the DDs is only competent....making it easy to fool the escorts.

This group leaves Singy on the 18th, gets to Brunei despawns, spawns back the 22 and heads for the San Bern on the 25th.

Marko · 11-12-10, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

I've never seen that group going that fast... I assume you're talking about Kurita's fleet coming through the San Bern, which is a good place to ambush it. If you're playing RSRD the fastest easternly leg is 22kts coming through the the Sibuyan Sea through the San Bern. Once it exits it shows it going 27kts heading SSE towards the US jeep carriers, on the return leg, back to 22kts. Obvious if it spots you, it should zig slowing down to probably 17kts. This group had both Y classes, is that what you hit? Also has a few Kongo's and one Fuso. The ratings on all the ships in this group, including the DDs is only competent....making it easy to fool the escorts.

This group leaves Singy on the 18th, gets to Brunei despawns, spawns back the 22 and heads for the San Bern on the 25th.

Writing down this invaluable infos from ComSubPac for future use in RSRD

I'm goin' down · 11-12-10, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armistead

I've never seen that group going that fast... I assume you're talking about Kurita's fleet coming through the San Bern, which is a good place to ambush it. If you're playing RSRD the fastest easternly leg is 22kts coming through the the Sibuyan Sea through the San Bern. Once it exits it shows it going 27kts heading SSE towards the US jeep carriers, on the return leg, back to 22kts. Obvious if it spots you, it should zig slowing down to probably 17kts. This group had both Y classes, is that what you hit? Also has a few Kongo's and one Fuso. The ratings on all the ships in this group, including the DDs is only competent....making it easy to fool the escorts.

This group leaves Singy on the 18th, gets to Brunei despawns, spawns back the 22 and heads for the San Bern on the 25th.

I do not know whose fleet it was or where it was heading to or coming from. It was totally encircled by dds/escorts, and I recall there were two log columns of captal ships. I did not take an inventory when I flew over with my camera, but there were lots of BBs. I only got one speed reading in each direction, so I cannot say I am certain on the speed of the TF. However, I tried to get a head of them when I first spotted them, and they exceeded the speed of Balao which was at 22-24 kts. I finally gave up on that plan, and went for what turned out to be a lucky shot at long range.

Armistead · 11-12-10, 07:08 PM

No doubt it's the Center Force of Kurita that comes through the Sibuyen Sea through the San Bern, two long rows of capital ships encircled by many DD's. The Yamato's bring up the rear. As this group exits the San Bern it heads sort of SSE where it comes in slight contact with the US jeep carrier force. Soundd like you found them coming around Samar going fast. Lurker has them turning back on each other so they don't do a massive battle or the Yamato's would eat them alive, but I've seen a few DD's do battle. A good place to catch the group is in the San Bern, so narrow the group will have to come over you.
If you miss it, just remember it comes back the 26th. As you stated it's faster than your sub so if it gets ahead, you're not gonna catch it either way.

The other force is the Southern Force that comes through the Surigao Strait same night, but just two Kongo's and several CA's and DD's, but you'll see several US TF that easily deal with it. Nice surface battle and you can easily finish off many damaged ships.

Course also the northern carrier group, battle of Cape Equano as discussed in another thread.

Here is an old SS of the two lines. If you catch it in the Sibuyan Sea..think that's how it's spelled the 24th you can watch it get attacked in mass by planes, another good time to attack it and you have more room.

I'm goin' down · 11-12-10, 08:48 PM

That looks like the TF! It is a LARGE TF and well guarded. Nice work finding it. You must have dissected Lurker's TF history!

Couple of issues on the subject of attacking a TF at 100 percent realism with map contacts enabled (the activation box is unchecked.)

I stll cannot seem to escape the dds and escorts. I have tried pointing my bow at the lead dd and diving under it, moving further ahead of the TF after after the dds spot my boat, etc. Nothing has worked. They find me. Maybe someone can put up a tutorial with screen shots? Also, I have not been able to get speed per the 3 minute rule because the TF silouettes do not appear until after the dds have pounced. I just do not have time. I have tried to get speed per the speed dial key on the Attack Tool speed dial if and when I am able resurface close to the TF main line. A screen shot tutorial would be a great help. I assume it would involve TMO 2.0 activated, map contacts enabled, PK activated, Easy Aob Mod activated, but who knows what, if anything will be posted? I could use a visual of the tactics to get into firing position. I do not think there is a good tutorial on attacking TFs. This is advanced sim warfare especially when the dds and escorts have the AI programmed by Ducimus. I can try the long range shot, but closing for a kill as Armistead has described appears beyong me without a good tutorial to show the way. Robbins could use it in his bag of tricks tutorial.

Armistead · 11-13-10, 12:43 AM

Well, you know they're so many factors and I'm sure you're doing most. Sometimes you just have to attack even when being pinged. If you're at 150ft and going flank you can almost always outrun charges. Many times I'll let the DD makes its run and come up to scope depth and take two quick stad measurements for speed and guess where my torps need to be and fire all 6 at one target. For one if the lead DD passes over you and the pinging stops you know you have time. Sometimes another DD will be ready to make another run, but if he only has me on longscale I'll try to at least get a look with the scope and shoot. Sometimes you have to let fly by sonar. Usually as long as I can make 8 kts the charges fall behind me unless caught at scope depth. If you have cams on you can easily see if you can come up, not it's a guess. Just try to have a full charge when you attack.

I'm probably being pinged during 50% of my attacks, but usally find a way to hit something. My guess is you're better than you think and you're wanting maybe more than you're gonna get.

Haven't played in a few weeks, but I'll try to put together a video of an attack soon to give you an idea, but many here are great at pulling off attacks so maybe they can add some new idea's.

I'm goin' down · 11-13-10, 01:06 AM

my problem is that my boat gets damaged. I can live with pings. I look forward to see what captains can come up with.

11-08-10, 10:25 PM	#1
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	TMO and dd evasion--my technique fails. Recently, I have been setting up at a range of 3,500 - 4,500 yds using the the constant bearing technique described in rock n' shoals post in the Subskippers Bag of Tricks thread. I am striking against TFs, the main line of which is at that range, straddled on both sides by Ducimus' famous dds and escorts, which parallel the main line on each side by approximately 1,000 - 3,000 yds. Out of six shots at two or three targets on the main line, usually cruisers, battleships or carriers, I hit one vessel, and come quite close to hitting the other target(s). I will settle for that, as the targets are all high risk, and are heavy tonnage. Regardless, the protective dd cordon ends with a radar track on my boat, even if it has dived before the unleashed torpedoes impact the chosen target(s). DDs have found my boat at a depth of 600 ft., and sunk it. Firing beyond a range of 4,500 yds with accuracy is difficult, as a slight miscalcualtion of speed, Aob or firing point makes a difference at long range. I know there are some who say the TMO dds are not a big deal and can be avoided. I don't believe them. If I angle my boat towards the oncoming task force to yield a smaller radar profile to the oncoming dds and escorts, the firing angle to the target yields a smaller aspect ratio, thus making accurate long range shots (i.e. ones that his the target) quite difficult, so that does not appear a feasible solution, even if it helps avoid the dd cordon. I may avoid being sunk, but the trade off is that I probably won't hit anything. Any reasonable suggestions to this dilemma. By the way the October 15, 1944 career start missions will lead to large TFs on their way to Luzon. The problem is that Ducimus' dds will be on guard, their crews are on caffeine overdose, and they usually screw up the party. Last edited by I'm goin' down; 11-08-10 at 11:17 PM. Reason: typos---again!

11-09-10, 08:27 AM	#2
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	If you're playing RSRD, it sets the factors for the crews, poor-elite, not TMO. However, I don't think it effects the sensors of TMO, so still fairly tough. Have you installed the IJN radar fix by tater, doe's help some as far as them picking you up on radar much further. In rough water I'll come at the TF straight on between the lead escort and the flank escort, with the goal of turning it to a 45 degree attack. Usually this means I have to shoot at the further line of targets as one line is almost on top of me. Course a few times I've been ran over with my scope up by large ships, so try to be careful. I seldom have a problem getting my attack off at close range. Usually I'll get pinged or found out soon after. My goal is to get my shots off before I'm found out. I don't dive deep until my attack is done. If I get pinged, I'm gonna stay flank and get my attack off if possible. The only issue I have is being stuck with some bad gyro's, but I've gotten fairly good with them. You can forget most target shooting methods, you stad it, guess where it's going and setup for where you want torp placement and then I'll unlock and shoot by the wire. Ive never had any luck with all the various shooting methods attacking TF. It sets you to a holding pattern that often places you in front of a DD. The good thing about RSRD is the TF are more spread out and often a wider escort screen. Often in calm waters I'll let them pick me up on radar so several escorts come a running. When they get about 8000 yards I'll dive and go flank and deep heading to my attack point. Don't let them catch you on radar where you want to shoot from. Usually a group of DD's are in my stern searchin where I dived leaving a flank exposed for me to attack from. Simply I'll be in front of the target about 10nms about 5000 yards off my attack point. I sit there until the escorts come and dive flank deep until I get to my attack point. The goal is to put 3000 yards between my arse and the searching escorts where I dived, then I can usually come up without them finding me. With cams and contacts off just make sure you mark where you dived and where you want to be when you shoot. The mark where you dived should be where the escorts will be searcing for you. If you can get to your shooting point without being pinged, success. If you're being pinged, hard to know if it's safe to come up when you're stuck in the sub. If they have me on longscale, I'll chance it, shortscale, head for deep water. Still, best plans can be foiled. Sometimes it's best to wait. The good thing about RSRD is most TF return along the path they came. My biggest mistake is getting greedy, often it works, sometimes not. I've blown some good setups trying to hit say 4 capital ships, when I should've settled for two. My goal is to sink one and atleast damage another so the TF will slow down, making the next end around easier. I'm sure I miss as much as anyone. I've always found speed and depth to be the factor in living. If you're gonna run at silent at 1kt, your gonna die with TMO. Last edited by Armistead; 11-09-10 at 08:55 AM.

11-09-10, 11:34 AM	#3
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	armistead I assume you are attacking while moving towards the TF? Is PK on? If not, are you using Cromwell, Rock n Shoals constant bearing method, or some other technique?

11-11-10, 10:13 PM	#8
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	Jap Fleet of Samar on 10/24 or 10/25/44 17 miles due north of Samar from the center of the Island, the Jap Fleet was travelling at 32-33 kts. heading in a south easterly direction. On their return trip, it was travelling at 22-23 kts. I fired a blind salvo at around 8,000yds and had three hits on a BB (a true once in a lifetime strike.) The torepdoes were set for less than 10 ft running depth and did not slow the target down. The TF was travelling two rows and was LARGE, completely ringed by escorts.

11-12-10, 08:48 PM	#13
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	armistead That looks like the TF! It is a LARGE TF and well guarded. Nice work finding it. You must have dissected Lurker's TF history! Couple of issues on the subject of attacking a TF at 100 percent realism with map contacts enabled (the activation box is unchecked.) I stll cannot seem to escape the dds and escorts. I have tried pointing my bow at the lead dd and diving under it, moving further ahead of the TF after after the dds spot my boat, etc. Nothing has worked. They find me. Maybe someone can put up a tutorial with screen shots? Also, I have not been able to get speed per the 3 minute rule because the TF silouettes do not appear until after the dds have pounced. I just do not have time. I have tried to get speed per the speed dial key on the Attack Tool speed dial if and when I am able resurface close to the TF main line. A screen shot tutorial would be a great help. I assume it would involve TMO 2.0 activated, map contacts enabled, PK activated, Easy Aob Mod activated, but who knows what, if anything will be posted? I could use a visual of the tactics to get into firing position. I do not think there is a good tutorial on attacking TFs. This is advanced sim warfare especially when the dds and escorts have the AI programmed by Ducimus. I can try the long range shot, but closing for a kill as Armistead has described appears beyong me without a good tutorial to show the way. Robbins could use it in his bag of tricks tutorial. Last edited by I'm goin' down; 11-12-10 at 11:47 PM.

11-09-10, 04:26 PM	#4
Bubblehead1980 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida USA Posts: 7,100 Downloads: 605 Uploads: 44	Keeping about 20 degrees rudder on with 1-2 knots, making a constant slow turn throws the escorts off, they dont know your path and lose contact.When they are roaring overhead, put your rudder amidships and go ahead flank for thirty seconds, the DD's noises cover yours, then all stop and put on 20 degrees rudder in the OPPOSITE direction it was before you went ahead flank.Do this for a few runs, it usually confuses the DD's and they will lose you.Takes some nerve esp with cams and contacts off but it works.

11-11-10, 07:11 PM	#7
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	For one I will have the base speed long before I attack, when cams offs using radar mod or just a guess based on if I can parallel it's course and match speed, pass it, ect. Most TF run at 17-19kts. Usually I let them find me on radar and will run from the group so they will go into zig mode, that slows them down and I will run away until the escorts turn back and track my end around. When I want to attack I will have course by making marks and using the tools to figure his base track, again using radar mod or if contacts on rather simple, no need to explain. The only TF I've seen hit 30kts of more are the fast dd groups in the slot, but I attack them all the time as they come in one line. Usually when I pull the DD's away and dive I hope to be 3-5000 yards off my attack track and not come back to surface. I did surface once in my Y attack because I was able, but that's rare.. If you can pull the escorts away at about 5nm's I've never had a problem diving going flank and putting them 3000 yards behind me hunting out of sonar range. If a TF is going faster say 24kts...you still should be able to travel 1500 yards at flank before they can reach 5nms, giving you a 1500 yard shot. Sort of think of it as a triangle. The TF the tip coming down the left line, the escorts coming faster down the right line and you the bottom line right moving left wanting to be where the left line connects your base before the TF gets there and the escorts should be searching at the base right line when you attack. When I attack, I'm setting up a normal two stad measurments for course and speed, leave PK locked, unlock scope, reset bearing at the bow and shoot by the wire. The group should be zigging, you may even get into the middle of it before you need to shoot and can use all tubes on several targets. Often you'll have to guess AOB based on his zig pattern, not what it is at the moment.

11-12-10, 05:59 AM	#9
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	I've never seen that group going that fast... I assume you're talking about Kurita's fleet coming through the San Bern, which is a good place to ambush it. If you're playing RSRD the fastest easternly leg is 22kts coming through the the Sibuyan Sea through the San Bern. Once it exits it shows it going 27kts heading SSE towards the US jeep carriers, on the return leg, back to 22kts. Obvious if it spots you, it should zig slowing down to probably 17kts. This group had both Y classes, is that what you hit? Also has a few Kongo's and one Fuso. The ratings on all the ships in this group, including the DDs is only competent....making it easy to fool the escorts. This group leaves Singy on the 18th, gets to Brunei despawns, spawns back the 22 and heads for the San Bern on the 25th.

11-12-10, 07:08 PM	#12
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	No doubt it's the Center Force of Kurita that comes through the Sibuyen Sea through the San Bern, two long rows of capital ships encircled by many DD's. The Yamato's bring up the rear. As this group exits the San Bern it heads sort of SSE where it comes in slight contact with the US jeep carrier force. Soundd like you found them coming around Samar going fast. Lurker has them turning back on each other so they don't do a massive battle or the Yamato's would eat them alive, but I've seen a few DD's do battle. A good place to catch the group is in the San Bern, so narrow the group will have to come over you. If you miss it, just remember it comes back the 26th. As you stated it's faster than your sub so if it gets ahead, you're not gonna catch it either way. The other force is the Southern Force that comes through the Surigao Strait same night, but just two Kongo's and several CA's and DD's, but you'll see several US TF that easily deal with it. Nice surface battle and you can easily finish off many damaged ships. Course also the northern carrier group, battle of Cape Equano as discussed in another thread. Here is an old SS of the two lines. If you catch it in the Sibuyan Sea..think that's how it's spelled the 24th you can watch it get attacked in mass by planes, another good time to attack it and you have more room.

11-13-10, 12:43 AM	#14
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Well, you know they're so many factors and I'm sure you're doing most. Sometimes you just have to attack even when being pinged. If you're at 150ft and going flank you can almost always outrun charges. Many times I'll let the DD makes its run and come up to scope depth and take two quick stad measurements for speed and guess where my torps need to be and fire all 6 at one target. For one if the lead DD passes over you and the pinging stops you know you have time. Sometimes another DD will be ready to make another run, but if he only has me on longscale I'll try to at least get a look with the scope and shoot. Sometimes you have to let fly by sonar. Usually as long as I can make 8 kts the charges fall behind me unless caught at scope depth. If you have cams on you can easily see if you can come up, not it's a guess. Just try to have a full charge when you attack. I'm probably being pinged during 50% of my attacks, but usally find a way to hit something. My guess is you're better than you think and you're wanting maybe more than you're gonna get. Haven't played in a few weeks, but I'll try to put together a video of an attack soon to give you an idea, but many here are great at pulling off attacks so maybe they can add some new idea's.

11-13-10, 01:06 AM	#15
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	armistead my problem is that my boat gets damaged. I can live with pings. I look forward to see what captains can come up with.