How did they find me?

[Akela]

I need to learn how to be...well...sneakier. I am on my second career and my 3rd wartime patrol, which should give you a pretty good idea how my first career went. I had just finished my 24 hours in AN18 with all my torpedoes and a pretty full tank of gas so I decided to sight see on the other side of the British Isles. I plotted a fairly straight-forward course around the north side of the Isles.

So, as you probably know, there is a strait between the mainland of Scotland and a group of islands that is home to a hostile port called "Scapa Flow". I am aware that the area is a fairly difficult one but I had the theory that I should be able to go anywhere as long as I stay submerged during the day and only surface at night to recharge, etc. It's September of 1939, so just the very first days of the war.

Anyway, about 05:00 I dive to 40 meters, set my speed to one-third and start cruising towards the entrance of the strait (at 128tc) After a little while I notice that I'm taking some damage. I'm a bit surprised that damage does not cause my TC to drop to 1 but it doesn't. I get the clock down to 1 and notice that about 15 minutes has gone by since the first damage message.

So there is no mention in the messages about being pinged, about depth charges in the water or anything like that. Just three damage messages, Radio Antenna, Observation Periscope, and Attack Periscope. That was all at 12:10, now it's 12:25.

After a few seconds I hear some pinging. Still no alert from anyone that I'm being pinged, but a ship drives right over the top of me pinging like crazy. No notice about dc's in the water but there are some explosions and the screen shakes although the sub doesn't appear to take any further damage. I immediately called for silent running, dived to 40 meters or so, set my speed to 1kts and turned around. The ship passed over me 2 or 3 times again but never dropped any more depth charges.

Now it's 13:06 and I've moved a ways south. Occasionally I still hear pinging from the north but they are only for brief moments and it's pretty far away.

So, given that background, here are the things I am wondering:

1) Where did that original damage come from? Did that warship drop some depth charges on me? If so, is it normal for the tc to stay at 128 when that happens? Is it possible something else caused the damage and the warship heard it and closed on me during the 15 minutes between when the damage occurred and when I got the tc down to 1 and heard his pings?

2) If the warship did cause the original damage how did he find me? Am I making enough noise at 40m on 1/3rd to alert ships around me?

3) If the answer to 2 is yes, how the hell can I sneak through that strait?

4) Or am I just being stupid and should take the long way around and realize that I'm just not as invisible as I think I am?

5) Oh, and finally, is my Sonar man a deaf-mute, or merely deaf?

As always, thanks for your help,

Akela

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Akela

2) If the warship did cause the original damage how did he find me? Am I making enough noise at 40m on 1/3rd to alert ships around me?

If they have passive sonar (the equivalent of your hydrophones) that will pick up sounds from a submerged vessel - then I'm going to say, yeah, that will make enough noise for them to pick it up.

Also I don't remember offhand how deep the water is in and around Scapa Flow, is it possible you entered an area too shallow for your 40 m depth and grounded the boat on the sea floor and took damage that way?

[Falkirion]

Agree with what Frau said. The waters around Scapa are fairly shallow so you might've been scraping the bottom.

I spend most of my time on the surface so far as late as 1940, and that was 12 patrols in on my last career. Your watch crew should alert you to anything if you stay up there, then its an easy case of crash diving if a hostile DD comes your way.

Others can probably advise on the best time to remain submerged during the day later in the war, but early on being on the surface beats submerging for the day hands down.

[Hinrich Schwab]

Like everyone says, Scapa Flow is very shallow. Once you get past the shore batteries (assuming you are approaching the harbor), one or two meters make a difference in whether you are scraping the bottom or not. You cannot rely on the simple dive and periscope depth commands as you have a high chance of bottoming your boat.

Scapa Flow is heavily defended with competent destroyers with good sonar. Here are some tips to get through.

1. Order Silent Running
(this kind of goes without saying)

2. NEVER go faster than Ahead Slow/Kleine Fahrt Voraus
(If you have not been detected or pinged, you can risk Ahead 1/3 IF you turn on your grammophone beforehand to confuse the destroyers. The other advantage is you have roughly 8-9 hours of charge on the batteries at this slow a speed versus 30 minutes at Ahead Flank.)

3. Keep an eye on your crew and rotate out fatigued crewmembers.
(Tired crewmembers, the ones with red exclamation points next to them, make noise. One tired crewman can mark your boat. Believe me.)

4. Keep your periscopes down. Raise them only if you need to.

I have run through Scapa Flow in most of the game's boats ( I refuse to use Type IIs) Following these tips should help you out.

[HW3]

You might have hit a mine. I doubt it was the bottom since all your damage is top side. Very unusual that TC didn't drop to 1 but, I had the same thing happen while swinging around the SE corner of Helgoland in a type II. All sorts of damage reports, flooding, ect, and yet TC stayed at 8 where I was running at the time.

[Alpha Von Burg]

I would agree with HW3, it is unlikly that you hit bottom because your damage was top side.

However, the waters around Scapa Flow are indeed very shallow and it is not possible to dive at a depth of 40m, let a lone beyond 25m.

From your statement, I would say it was a mine because if it were a surface vessel, you would be hearing a lot of pings, because after the fist vessel pings you, more would follow, especially in an area like Scapa Flow.

I would also say that that was a close call, because that mine could have been closer.

Good Hunting...

[Akela]

Thank you all for the advice. It wasn't the bottom though, I forgot to mention that I was rapidly spamming the depth report button the whole time and the lowest that it ever reported was an additional 25 meters. I wasn't trying to enter the Scapa Flow harbor, just pass through the strait that is south of it, hugging the Scottish coast.

Also, I mis-reported my speed, which was ahead slow, not 1/3rd.

But based on everything you guys came up I think it's most likely that they just heard me. I hadn't rigged for silent running (since I wasn't repairing I thought that wouldn't make any difference). Also, I was in a Type II.

Second best guess is I hit a mine. Didn't know there were mines there. Heck, didn't know there were mines anywhere. I learn something new every day here. Thanks!

I'm going to make another run at it right now and see what happens!

Cheers,

Akela

[Akela]

Okay, they win, I go around them to the North now.

This Type IIA is extremely hard to maneuver. It seems that it can't dive unless it's moving at more than 2kts.

Ah well, 3rd Career, coming up.

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by Akela

Thank you all for the advice. It wasn't the bottom though, I forgot to mention that I was rapidly spamming the depth report button the whole time and the lowest that it ever reported was an additional 25 meters. I wasn't trying to enter the Scapa Flow harbor, just pass through the strait that is south of it, hugging the Scottish coast.

Also, I mis-reported my speed, which was ahead slow, not 1/3rd.

But based on everything you guys came up I think it's most likely that they just heard me. I hadn't rigged for silent running (since I wasn't repairing I thought that wouldn't make any difference). Also, I was in a Type II.

Second best guess is I hit a mine. Didn't know there were mines there. Heck, didn't know there were mines anywhere. I learn something new every day here. Thanks!

I'm going to make another run at it right now and see what happens!

Cheers,

Akela

Unless you manually set your speed to 1 knot your really not on silent running. If you just hit the 'z' key and expect to be silent, DD's won't take long to find you and you'll start getting DC's falling nearby or right on top/below you. Long as they are using passive listening you have to run at 1 knot otherwise you might as well run at flank, they can hear and track you just the same (least at flank you have the momentum to make good knuckle turns to avoid DC's).

Scapa has a lot of minefields wherever there aren't blockships. Easiest way to get inside is at night on the surface from the West (southern strait), or anytime (day or night) during a bad storm. When the visibility is almost 0 and the waves go over the ship it's easy to get in and out of the harbor. Once (heavy rain, heavy wind, pretty much max bad weather conditions) I was able to exit through the front door (south enterance/exit) on the surface without running into any escorts or land batteries. Was quite a nerve racking operation, felt like I was streaking through a Marine barracks and just waiting for one of them to snag me and beat me to a pulp) but made it out in one piece and didn't submerge till I left the harbor.

Even after Prien infiltrated Scapa (which they were seriously lucky he didn't do it several days sooner when the majority of the home fleet was moored there) and they added more sunken bloakboats its still relatively easy to get into. Afterwards the home fleet was sent to Loch Ewe which is very tough to get into. Its possible with patientce and waiting at the subnets until the escorts are out of the way so you can partially surface to move over the subnet. Can be some juicy warships in there depending on the time but is a very high risk target to infiltrate.

With the holes in the subnets Gibraltor is probably 2nd easiest to get into (that has warships usually moored there); though if you're not careful 4 or 5 escorts can converge on your spot real fast making your life hell. Later in the war (at the least when you can transfer to La Spezia) there's usually a BB, CV and several cruisers there, sometimes more. Just be prepared that they can send an endless number of DD's after you so even if you escape the harbor you still have to get out of the straight and safety which can be just as hard even with having deep water to work with.

[Mittelwaechter]

I guess you have been at periscope depth - not at 40 meters as you assumed - and you rammed a trawler or DD or something, this destroyed your periscopes and other upper stuff. You won't get a message in that scenario. In these early days your hydrooperators are quite unexperienced and may have missed a slow moving trawler. And there are deaf spots at your bow and stern.
In the case of beeing depth charged or hitting a mine you would have been dropped out of TC.

I once hit a little freighter from Portugal right outside of Wilhelmshaven. It was sailing with 2 kts or so and couldn't move out of my way in time. Result: port diesel destroyed and heavy hull damage.
My crew even reported that freighter, but I ignored it so close to my homeport.

It was a very short trip.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Mittelwaechter

I guess you have been at periscope depth - not at 40 meters as you assumed - and you rammed a trawler or DD or something, this destroyed your periscopes and other upper stuff. You won't get a message in that scenario. In these early days your hydrooperators are quite unexperienced and may have missed a slow moving trawler. And there are deaf spots at your bow and stern.
In the case of beeing depth charged or hitting a mine you would have been dropped out of TC.

Most likely scenario

[Missing Name]

What I find amusing is if a DD runs into you on accident... and continues as if nothing happened. They might even sink later due to the damage.

Or you could be unlucky and she immediately DC spams the surface and fires all guns randomly. Then you have very little chance of repairing anything. Once saw all my boat sections go red (critical damage) because of that.

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by Akela

...

So, as you probably know, there is a strait between the mainland of Scotland and a group of islands that is home to a hostile port called "Scapa Flow". I am aware that the area is a fairly difficult one but I had the theory that I should be able to go anywhere as long as I stay submerged during the day and only surface at night to recharge, etc. It's September of 1939, so just the very first days of the war.

...

So you crossed the gap between AN15 and AN16? I would prefer the gap in AN14, less shallow and not so much a detour. AN15/16 is heavily patrolled. You could easily have been too close to them to get above their hydrophone detection level (at 1/3rd throttle). And then followed up with active sonar. There just isn't much room to avoid them. I don't always get a crew report about getting DC-ed or pinged. So it's not a guarantee that you'll be safe in the absence of those reports. Also since all the damage is topside it definitely hints to depthcharges.

[Mittelwaechter]

Well, I want to correct my posting above: you'll get a message reporting damage after a collision, but you won't drop out of TC.



Edit: aah - first time I have an adequate avatar icon.

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by Akela

Thank you all for the advice. It wasn't the bottom though, I forgot to mention that I was rapidly spamming the depth report button...

Having your navigator ping for depth marks you for destroyers. They can hear the ping, too. Along with what everyone else said, it sounds like everything simply went wrong for you. Also, Type II subs are poor boats for such a heavily patrolled area. Along with their sorry performance, you simply do not have enough torpedoes to be effective.