Night Surface Attacks! HELP!

Captain1966 · 10-17-10, 09:02 AM

I'm running TMO 2.0, which is a fantastic mod!

My problem is night surface attacks. When approaching I'm always seen. Merchants spot me at night when there is no moon and I'm as far away as 3000 yards!

So what are the ideal conditions for a night surface attack and how far should I stand off without being seen?

Does installing RSRDC over TMO 2.0 affect this at all? I dont have RSRDC at the moment.

Thanks!

tater · 10-17-10, 09:23 AM

Without the fix I recently posted, RSRDC might make it worse since may IJN ships had air-search radar which also (mistakenly) detects ships.

Getting the AI to see right in the day, and at night is, well, non-trivial. You might try the easier AI mod for TMO (made by ducimus, and in his first post for TMO).

tater · 10-17-10, 09:36 AM

WTF, I'll take this a little OT. Right now, different mods (TMO/RFB/RSRDC have some visual sensor mods. So there might be an "escort" visual sensor, and a "merchant" one that is shorter ranged.

This is another idea I had ages ago and never got around to. You make more than just a few visual sensors. Add many new ones. For example. You make 10 "civilian ship" visual sensors. Merchant_1, _2, etc. The max range on Merchant_1 is 1000 meters. On Merchant_10 it's whatever the max is now in some mods, say 7000 m. Some might have middle of the road ranges, but limited arcs. So Merchant_4 has a 5000m range, 360 arc, while Merchant_5 has a 5000m range, and a 270 degree arc, and _6 has a similar range, but the 270 arc is pointed the other way. Can also muck with sensitivity and minsurface.

Then, in the merchant sns files, you have the visual sensors change MANY times during the war for each ship. Have different ships change in different orders. So a convoy with 5 ships all with the same cfg date likely has a few different visual sensors.

You could do the same for escorts, but I'd always keep them 360 degrees, just range or minsurface changes.

Something like that could make it more hit or miss than always being invisible at night vs always being visible.

Armistead · 10-17-10, 10:28 AM

I can pull night surface attacks off running decks awash at about 2500 yards.

A better tactic is to run on the surface and shoot a M14 from long range, say 5500 yards when you can't be seen and haul arse. Try to hit something, but that's not the goal. The DD's will go looking where the torp came from for a fairly long time, but you're long gone. This will leave a flank of the convoy exposed and you can then go in and do a night surface attack from 2000 yards, turn and haul arse. Again the DD's will come, but you'll be gone again, so attack the other weak flank. The goal is to keep the escorts dancing where you were and keep repeating the cycle.

If you get hits, don't hang around wasting time finishing off damaged ships, keep moving, you can clean up once your attack is done with the DG...and no don't be shooting the DG while your doing your torp attacks.

Also easier, or more realistic with taters radar fix, not a cheat, he corrected the radar, now you can work in to reasonable rangles without DD's coming at ya from 10nms.

Bubblehead1980 · 10-17-10, 03:38 PM

I pull night surface attacks off all the time in TMO RSRD, without decks awash, I find decks awash to be a waste myself.The key is moonlight and fog.Light fog helps reduce their ability to see you.Subs are tough to see at night on surface anyway.

I posted screenshots in a thread where I did a night surface attack in March 1944 on a escort carrier TF with escorts.

Typically I fire at 2000-3000 yards in night surface attacks, if moon is out, will fire from longer distances.

Make sure you dont have the moon behind you, provides light and makes you easier to spot.Move slowly 2-3 knots, keep your bow wake to the minimal.

Keep you AOB small towards escorts...say you have a convoy and the lead escortis coming, point your bow at him, using gradual rudder movements and speed, turn with him until he's moving away and youll have the 90 degree AOB shot on the merchants once they come along.Of course you have to watch out for flank escorts.Watch them closely, every once in a while they will take off into never never land looking, leaving the sides wide open, you have to move in then if you want to get close enough for a good shot.

Once you get the shot, need to have your escape plannedafter torpedos are fired(and even if close, fire on slow speed with Mark 14 so you have more time to slip away) Back away slow , add some rudder so you can least be half way into a turn or have your bow pointed in the appropriate direction, so you can go ahead emergency once the torpedos hit(if needed, sometimes best to slow slip away, depends on situation)

Rough seas make night surface tough because of the waves hitting your ship, it makes you easier to spot.In rough seas go for a longer range shot, say 4000 yards.

Night surface is risky in any situation but it works in TMO RSRD, I pull it off on a regular basis.

One other thing is in later war escorts have radar, so night surface is tough.In RL Us subs often did night surface attacks even with radar equipped escorts bc Japanese radar was not really effective usually.Tater created a patch but i havent really encountered it yet, although the TF Im chasing in June 1944 isnt picking me up at 7 miles, so its working, but havent been up against a convoy with radar escorts yet to see if can pull off a night surface, will see soon.

tater · 10-17-10, 09:16 PM

Be aware that all the kaibokan (coast defense ships), Matsus, and subchasers (the "real" SCs) have type 22 radar pretty much as soon as it becomes available.

Dunno if there is a way to get radar to behave more realistically. Perhaps the same way I suggest above for visual sensors. Make some radars that suck, and others that are OK, make it so during any date range SOME of IJN ships get decent radars, and the rest get the crap kind

Could be done.

virtualpender · 10-17-10, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

This is another idea I had ages ago and never got around to. You make more than just a few visual sensors. Add many new ones. <snip> Something like that could make it more hit or miss than always being invisible at night vs always being visible.

Absolute genius. I hope you bring this to fruition.

tater · 10-17-10, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by virtualpender

Absolute genius. I hope you bring this to fruition.

To do this properly, the campaign needs all the CFG dates randomized for all ships.

This is not hard with the automated editor, you need it to read all the appearance dates for a given group, then have each ship within have a date that is in some date range ending with "AppearanceDate." Say X months, Y days prior. That way you could have 10 of the same type all with different cgfdates.

That would mean roughly speaking you'd want the sensors to change roughly every 3-4 months. Alternating in the decent ones with the right %s. Visuals on IJN ships, however, should be generally excellent. Even small units had nice optics aboard. Kaibokan had several nice, really large mounted binos on each ship for the watch.

10-17-10, 09:02 AM	#1
Captain1966 Swabbie Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 12 Downloads: 56 Uploads: 0	Night Surface Attacks! HELP! I'm running TMO 2.0, which is a fantastic mod! My problem is night surface attacks. When approaching I'm always seen. Merchants spot me at night when there is no moon and I'm as far away as 3000 yards! So what are the ideal conditions for a night surface attack and how far should I stand off without being seen? Does installing RSRDC over TMO 2.0 affect this at all? I dont have RSRDC at the moment. Thanks!

10-17-10, 09:23 AM	#2
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Without the fix I recently posted, RSRDC might make it worse since may IJN ships had air-search radar which also (mistakenly) detects ships. Getting the AI to see right in the day, and at night is, well, non-trivial. You might try the easier AI mod for TMO (made by ducimus, and in his first post for TMO).

10-17-10, 09:36 AM	#3
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	WTF, I'll take this a little OT. Right now, different mods (TMO/RFB/RSRDC have some visual sensor mods. So there might be an "escort" visual sensor, and a "merchant" one that is shorter ranged. This is another idea I had ages ago and never got around to. You make more than just a few visual sensors. Add many new ones. For example. You make 10 "civilian ship" visual sensors. Merchant_1, _2, etc. The max range on Merchant_1 is 1000 meters. On Merchant_10 it's whatever the max is now in some mods, say 7000 m. Some might have middle of the road ranges, but limited arcs. So Merchant_4 has a 5000m range, 360 arc, while Merchant_5 has a 5000m range, and a 270 degree arc, and _6 has a similar range, but the 270 arc is pointed the other way. Can also muck with sensitivity and minsurface. Then, in the merchant sns files, you have the visual sensors change MANY times during the war for each ship. Have different ships change in different orders. So a convoy with 5 ships all with the same cfg date likely has a few different visual sensors. You could do the same for escorts, but I'd always keep them 360 degrees, just range or minsurface changes. Something like that could make it more hit or miss than always being invisible at night vs always being visible.

10-17-10, 10:28 AM	#4
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	I can pull night surface attacks off running decks awash at about 2500 yards. A better tactic is to run on the surface and shoot a M14 from long range, say 5500 yards when you can't be seen and haul arse. Try to hit something, but that's not the goal. The DD's will go looking where the torp came from for a fairly long time, but you're long gone. This will leave a flank of the convoy exposed and you can then go in and do a night surface attack from 2000 yards, turn and haul arse. Again the DD's will come, but you'll be gone again, so attack the other weak flank. The goal is to keep the escorts dancing where you were and keep repeating the cycle. If you get hits, don't hang around wasting time finishing off damaged ships, keep moving, you can clean up once your attack is done with the DG...and no don't be shooting the DG while your doing your torp attacks. Also easier, or more realistic with taters radar fix, not a cheat, he corrected the radar, now you can work in to reasonable rangles without DD's coming at ya from 10nms.

10-17-10, 03:38 PM	#5
Bubblehead1980 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida USA Posts: 7,100 Downloads: 605 Uploads: 44	I pull night surface attacks off all the time in TMO RSRD, without decks awash, I find decks awash to be a waste myself.The key is moonlight and fog.Light fog helps reduce their ability to see you.Subs are tough to see at night on surface anyway. I posted screenshots in a thread where I did a night surface attack in March 1944 on a escort carrier TF with escorts. Typically I fire at 2000-3000 yards in night surface attacks, if moon is out, will fire from longer distances. Make sure you dont have the moon behind you, provides light and makes you easier to spot.Move slowly 2-3 knots, keep your bow wake to the minimal. Keep you AOB small towards escorts...say you have a convoy and the lead escortis coming, point your bow at him, using gradual rudder movements and speed, turn with him until he's moving away and youll have the 90 degree AOB shot on the merchants once they come along.Of course you have to watch out for flank escorts.Watch them closely, every once in a while they will take off into never never land looking, leaving the sides wide open, you have to move in then if you want to get close enough for a good shot. Once you get the shot, need to have your escape plannedafter torpedos are fired(and even if close, fire on slow speed with Mark 14 so you have more time to slip away) Back away slow , add some rudder so you can least be half way into a turn or have your bow pointed in the appropriate direction, so you can go ahead emergency once the torpedos hit(if needed, sometimes best to slow slip away, depends on situation) Rough seas make night surface tough because of the waves hitting your ship, it makes you easier to spot.In rough seas go for a longer range shot, say 4000 yards. Night surface is risky in any situation but it works in TMO RSRD, I pull it off on a regular basis. One other thing is in later war escorts have radar, so night surface is tough.In RL Us subs often did night surface attacks even with radar equipped escorts bc Japanese radar was not really effective usually.Tater created a patch but i havent really encountered it yet, although the TF Im chasing in June 1944 isnt picking me up at 7 miles, so its working, but havent been up against a convoy with radar escorts yet to see if can pull off a night surface, will see soon.

10-17-10, 09:16 PM	#6
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Be aware that all the kaibokan (coast defense ships), Matsus, and subchasers (the "real" SCs) have type 22 radar pretty much as soon as it becomes available. Dunno if there is a way to get radar to behave more realistically. Perhaps the same way I suggest above for visual sensors. Make some radars that suck, and others that are OK, make it so during any date range SOME of IJN ships get decent radars, and the rest get the crap kind Could be done.