German draft likely to be abolished

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...3548-2,00.html

I used to be against conscription these days, but Gen a.D. Naumann, former chief of staff and one of NATO's highest respected generals in his active time, made at least some remarks defending it that have left a footnote in my mind.

I know from first hand sources that Naumann enjoyed huge respect and trust in the German military.

Some of the planned cuts in defence nevertheless are worrying to me. For example to cut the number of main battle tanks to 150. On the other hand i wonder if maybe I am just sticking to a dinosaur by habit, much like the navies in WWII sticked to battleships although they were proven to be outdated by the new aircraft carrier weapon.

Bad timing that would be if it is true for tanks, too. Russia seems to be set to present its new mysterious wondertank T-95 Black Eagle to the public this year. If only half of the rumours on it are true, it would be a really nasty beast.

[Schroeder]

Not just the tanks. The fighterbombers are also getting drastically reduced. No need for airpower on a modern battlefield...
The draft can't be upheld if only a handful of people really get drafted. It's unfair. However I don't see how an army without the draft could grow to sufficient numbers quickly enough if the brown stuff should ever hit the fan again.

[TLAM Strike]

Well you can cut the troops or cut the heavy weapons (armor and jets). If you cut both you lose capabilities since the heavy weapons can do the work of many foot soldiers and vice versa.

If you are running a big conscript army then don't invest in all those fancy tanks and planes, your numbers make up for it.

If you are running a small professional standing army then stick all those troops in some kind of technological terror, since you can't afford to lose any.

who cares? Germany hasn't/can't contribute to world security anyway.

If the US removed our commitment, Germany would have to man up. Which would make the French, Russians and Brits very nervous.

[Schroeder]

Care to elaborate?

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by The Third Man

who cares? Germany hasn't/can't contribute to world security anyway.

These 217 men might see it differently.

To the Bundeswehr's KIA, MIA and WIA from America.

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

These 217 men might see it differently.

To the Bundeswehr's KIA, MIA and WIA from America.

Although a tragedy for their families, which i don't want to diminish, 217 out of a population of 87 millions is not exactly a major sacrifice.

[Morts]

Originally Posted by The Third Man

Although a tragedy for their families, which i don't want to diminish, 217 out of a population of 87 millions is not exactly a major sacrifice.

wow....just...wow

Originally Posted by Morts

wow....just...wow

you'r correct. the german nation will be ravished and extinct for the loss of 217 young men in a population of 87 millions.

[Morts]

wow, you really are a sad human being...

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by The Third Man

Although a tragedy for their families, which i don't want to diminish, 217 out of a population of 87 millions is not exactly a major sacrifice.

Who is to say what those dead might have accomplished had they lived.

"This Ryan better be worth it. He better go home and cure some disease, or invent a longer-lasting light bulb, or something."
- Captain John H. Miller

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Who is to say what those dead might have accomplished had they lived.

.

Correct. We will never know. But we won't know the same info about many things. To be paralized by the thought of death is to be genocidal.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Morts

wow, you really are a sad human being...

He is a being that recently recommended that me and 13 million other Germans should commit suicide. Which I took queer a bit - he is on the ignore list for that.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Not just the tanks. The fighterbombers are also getting drastically reduced. No need for airpower on a modern battlefield...
The draft can't be upheld if only a handful of people really get drafted. It's unfair. However I don't see how an army without the draft could grow to sufficient numbers quickly enough if the brown stuff should ever hit the fan again.

But Naumann has some good arguments in defense of drafting. I was not aware that such a big ammount of pros were recruited from conscripts, for example - that means to raise a personell pool much easier and economically than the expensive recruiting efforts certain propfessijanl armies must conduct. what he said on the need that a CO cannot afford to rely on his stars, but must earn the trust of his subordinates newly every time new draftees are coming, also made sense to me.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Well you can cut the troops or cut the heavy weapons (armor and jets). If you cut both you lose capabilities since the heavy weapons can do the work of many foot soldiers and vice versa.

If you are running a big conscript army then don't invest in all those fancy tanks and planes, your numbers make up for it.

Are we the Chinese? Western regimes cannot afford to have high losses, else the voters get uneasy very quickly. On the other hand, supoerior technology can compensate for inferior numbers only to some degree, and not beyond. This also works the other way around, if you have too few units, sooner or later a numercially superior and determined enemy can "flood" there area and overwhelm them. you need good technology - and suffiocient numbers. Numbers must be such that even taking losses do not endanger the operational integrity of the army . And this is where my greatest concern is.

the other is the lack of logistical capacity of the Germans. They want to act internationally, but one must see it realistic: in principle the Germans lack the capability to shift robust combat forces around the globe.

If you are running a small professional standing army then stick all those troops in some kind of technological terror, since you can't afford to lose any.

Yes, right that: you cannot afford to lose any.

Now consider how realistic that is. If you need help to beef up your fantasy, play one or two matches of SBP. If being trained well and having the right warhead, every dwarf with a Panzerfaust-style of weapon can take out a Leopard-2A6.