Promotions

[ijnfleetadmiral]

First off, I absolutely LOVE this game!

Anyone know why you can't promote Seamen to Warrant Officers and Warrant Officers to Officers? My sonar operator is the highest-ranking enlisted person on my boat (he was promoted Chief Sr. Warrant Officer before any other Warrant Officer), and I've wanted to make him an officer for quite awhile now. I've awarded him nearly every medal (the only ones he doesn't have are the Wound Badge and the Knight's Cross; I just awarded him the German Cross in Gold after our last patrol), and I think he's quite deserving of officer rank.

What's the highest officer rank in the game? Wikipedia says 'Lieutenant Sr.', but I'm curious if anyone else has managed to reach higher.

TIA for any info!

-Matt

[Sgt_Raa]

im just gonna say welcome to the pack ... idk the answer 2 ur question sorry

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by ijnfleetadmiral

First off, I absolutely LOVE this game!

Anyone know why you can't promote Seamen to Warrant Officers and Warrant Officers to Officers? My sonar operator is the highest-ranking enlisted person on my boat (he was promoted Chief Sr. Warrant Officer before any other Warrant Officer), and I've wanted to make him an officer for quite awhile now. I've awarded him nearly every medal (the only ones he doesn't have are the Wound Badge and the Knight's Cross; I just awarded him the German Cross in Gold after our last patrol), and I think he's quite deserving of officer rank.

What's the highest officer rank in the game? Wikipedia says 'Lieutenant Sr.', but I'm curious if anyone else has managed to reach higher.

TIA for any info!

-Matt

So far I've made it to Kapitänleutnant, I don't know how much higher up it's possible to go.

I think with SH3 Commander it's possible to promote an enlisted man into the officers' ranks - at least I'm assuming that the game recognizes it, the option appears to be there IIRC.

Within the game itself I don't think it's possible to promote any enlisted man into a commisioned officer's rank, and I assume this reflects real life more accurately since being a commissioned officer usually requires one to have been accepted and specially trained for that level of rank/responsibility from the get-go.

I know there are "in the field" commissions in the US (and probably most?) armed forces, don't know about the Kriegsmarine though. They seem to have been pretty picky about who was accepted for officer training, at least pre-war. I would assume any enlisted man would be able to advance to an NCO rank with the appropriate training if he proved worthy of that opportunity so I don't know why that's not possible in the game.

Interesting subject all around, so I'm curious to hear from those who have the scoop on Real Life vs The Game in this regard.

Usual advice hereabouts is to get and use SH3 Commander, it will give you more and better options for crew and career management.

Oh and welcome aboard!

[Obltn Strand]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

I think with SH3 Commander it's possible to promote an enlisted man into the officers' ranks - at least I'm assuming that the game recognizes it, the option appears to be there IIRC.

Other way around. Basic game with enough renown and promotion ordinary seaman can be promoted to nco and nco to officer.

[Jimbuna]

It is not possible to promote enlisted men to officer rank I'm afraid.

If you tweak/adjust the relevant files you can attain the rank of:

Fregattenkapitan then Kapitan z. S.

[Sailor Steve]

WELCOME ABOARD!

Real life on a ship:

All seamen are petty officers in training. They may be knot-tyers and they may be radiomen or machinists, but they are learning a specific skill. Once the reach the highest (Seaman 1st Class for the US and Matrosenobergefreiter for the Kriegsmarine) the become a junior petty officer and are considered 'rated', officially a member of that job description.

In real life it is possible for a sailor to go from sailor to petty officer, but in real life the captain doesn't have the power to promote him. He can recommend him for promotion, but it is done through official channels. And there is a reasonable chance that he would be reassigned at that point.

A Chief Petty Officer is the highest an enlisted man can go. There are 'higher' ratings, at least in the US (Senior Chief, Master Chief), but if someone is considered qualified for promotion to actual officer rank he has to go back to Officer Candidate School (or the German equivalent) and undergo training, so he would disappear from your crew and be replaced, not promoted on your boat.

Yes, there are battlefield promotions (one of my favorites is in The Longest Day, when Robert Mitchum promotes Jeffrey Hunter from sergeant to lieutenant and sends him of to die just minutes later), but they are usually considered 'brevet' promotions, which means they haven't been officially confirmed. 'General' George Custer was officially still a colonel when he was killed.

But that's the army and that's a battlefield. It's not nearly so common in the navy, where rank means less than proficiency.

[frau kaleun]

@Sailor Steve: Cool, thanks for the info.

Is the term "NCO" used in naval terminology at all, or is it strictly "Petty Officer" for the equivalent ranks?

[Sailor Steve]

'Non-Commissioned Offier' is in the books, but never used. Actually they are almost never called 'Petty Officers' either, at least in the US navy. They are always referred to by their rating, or just by their last name.

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

It is not possible to promote enlisted men to officer rank I'm afraid.

If you tweak/adjust the relevant files you can attain the rank of:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Fregattenkapitan then Kapitan z. S.

Actually....with SH3 Commander it is possible to promote seaman to NCO, and NCO to Officers. What you have to do first is dismiss one of the higher ranking crewmen in order to make space.

So if you wanted to promote a seaman to a NCO, you either need to be short of the max # that the boat allows, get a bigger boat that will allow a larger crew, or give one of your crew their walking papers (i.e. a NCO in order to promote a seaman, an Officer in order to promote a NCO). Though dismissing an Officer (as I think it reads in the manual) is more of a gesture of acknowledging that they are ready for command and you are giving them their chance. I know you can do it via SH3c, not 100% if you're using vanilla.

Far as rank ingame goes, without modding the highest rank you can get is Korvettenkapitan. Awhile back I figured out how to mod the game to add additional ranks, and some other work that is (still) in progress dealing with the medals/badges and other awards. Rather than try and explain the necessary files to change for them to work, just use SH3 Commander. I worked with Jasun to include the mods into the program and made the graphics for the additional ranks. With the new ranks you can rise as high as the rank of Admiral.

At the peak of my game, I could never rise above the rank of Kommodore; after Korvettekapitan the reknown needed for promotion starts to get extremely steep; if I remember correctly I got Kommodore at around 65,000 (current, not accumulated) reknown. As you can see in my signature, that was taken from my best career on my way to raid Gibraltor. Rather than get sunk, I ended up retiring in early 1944 with 1,800,000 tons of ships sunk (1,000,000 worth of warships, rest were merchants) and lived out the rest of the war in a cozy place in Switzerland until it was safe to return to the fatherland and being sailing again ^^

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

'Non-Commissioned Offier' is in the books, but never used. Actually they are almost never called 'Petty Officers' either, at least in the US navy. They are always referred to by their rating, or just by their last name.

German Kriegsmarine ranks can be confusing as there are instances where it takes 2 promotions in order to achieve the equavalent one in the Allied forces. This page is a really good one, it shows the progression of the (officer) ranks and their insignia; the insignia worn on the shoulder is very different than the US military's method. One item of note is that Germany historically used lower ranked officers as u-boat commanders. Usually a major would be the CO of a submarine, whereas Germany would frequently use one who's rank was one or two lower than their American equivalent. Once one achieved the rank of Korvettenkapitän or Fregattenkapitän it would be rare to see them still on active service in a U-Boat; normally they'd be given (or encouraged) to take job landside as a Flotille commander or even base commander (something which required a much higher rank, usually captain or a 1 star admiral in the US Navy).

SH3 has unrated "Petty Officers", which is not possible in real life.

Best you can do is to consider them as Seaman Firsts, striking for a particular rating.
When you hand them a qualification, it is the equivalent of their being promoted to Petty Officer.

Most Petty Officers attended a school for their particular specialty, but some do it the hard way.:

The individual must demonstrate an interest, proficiantcy towards, and some knowledge of a particular rate.

The Commanding Officer must approve the individual as a Striker for that particular rate.

The individual gets assigned to that particular department, for training.

The individual must meet all the requirements of both the rate, and Petty Officer Third, and recieve his Commanding Officer's recommendation for promotion.

The individual must take a competative navywide test, and score amongst the highest tier required for that particular billet. It is competative, and billets are only filled on an AS NEEDED NAVYWIDE basis.

Other factors for promotion are:
Time in service.
Time in rank.
Time in rate.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Snestorm

SH3 has unrated "Petty Officers", which is not possible in real life.

Best you can do is to consider them as Seaman Firsts, striking for a particular rating.

I think the 'best' you can do is the way I do it. I start with a 'practice' patrol, which involves driving around the harbor for a bit of fun and then ending it. Then I use Commander to give every last one of them a job.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I think the 'best' you can do is the way I do it. I start with a 'practice' patrol, which involves driving around the harbor for a bit of fun and then ending it. Then I use Commander to give every last one of them a job.

That'll work too.

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by Snestorm

SH3 has unrated "Petty Officers", which is not possible in real life.

Best you can do is to consider them as Seaman Firsts, striking for a particular rating.
When you hand them a qualification, it is the equivalent of their being promoted to Petty Officer.

Most Petty Officers attended a school for their particular specialty, but some do it the hard way.:

The individual must demonstrate an interest, proficiantcy towards, and some knowledge of a particular rate.

The Commanding Officer must approve the individual as a Striker for that particular rate.

The individual gets assigned to that particular department, for training.

The individual must meet all the requirements of both the rate, and Petty Officer Third, and recieve his Commanding Officer's recommendation for promotion.

The individual must take a competative navywide test, and score amongst the highest tier required for that particular billet. It is competative, and billets are only filled on an AS NEEDED NAVYWIDE basis.

Other factors for promotion are:
Time in service.
Time in rank.
Time in rate.

As far as enlisted ranks go (in the game) they took short cuts to create that confusing mistake you mention. It should go:

Matrose (enlisted):
- gefreiter
- obergefreiter
- haupgefreiter
Bootsmann (NCO):
- Feldwebel
- Stabsfeldwebel <--- Missing
- Oberfeldwebel
- Stabsoberfeldwebel


Everything you've pointed out is unquestionably true, for Germany in wwii time was not on their side. With most crews not even lasting 5 or more patrols it wans't feasable to sink 2 years worth of training into a NCO that was probably going to die in his first or second patrol.

Agreed the game failed in recreating the process, but it does mirror to a certain degree what happened on the German side due to their massive losses and lack of any high or even many mid ranking officers survived at all. Where we had admirals in command of aircraft carriers in the pacific than the Germans did in their whole command; talk about a serious lack of leadership!

If one were to approach it realistically, anyone within their crew that they felt merited promotion to the next rate is to dismiss them from your crew (to signify sending them off to training), and go to the barracks and recruit either a new crewman to take the open spot (whether it be a Matrose or Bootsmann).

Once 1942 ended and the battle of the Atlantic was pretty much lost the whole system fell apart and replacements couldn't be trained to the same level as the 'old bunch'. After Prien, Schutze and Kretchsmer were captured/sunk only a few captains would later go on to even break 100,000 tons over their whole career.

@Tessa

You speek volumes of truth.

One had to be a fairly senior officer to command a VII"A", IX"A", or even a Type I, at war's start.

A few years later they were handing IXC keys over to fairly junior, and (in terms of command) inexperienced officers.

It's realy sad reading about the number of boats, in late war, that were lost on their first patrol.

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by Snestorm

@Tessa

You speek volumes of truth.

One had to be a fairly senior officer to command a VII"A", IX"A", or even a Type I, at war's start.

A few years later they were handing IXC keys over to fairly junior, and (in terms of command) inexperienced officers.

It's realy sad reading about the number of boats, in late war, that were lost on their first patrol.

The Allies wised up after WWI and began re-capturing real-estate where the training grounds for the new officers and trainee capitains were. It became more of a trial by fire than a real training program after ~ 1943, only a handfull of officers really became proficient at the job like Topp and the (promoted) crew of U-48 which ultimatey comprised what remained of the combat elite.

After some researching I finally figured out the answer to your earlier question about a NCO w/o any pips. Found a much more detailed chart of all the enlisted ranks. Many of the odd looking ranks (like the blank nco's, or ones with 2 horizontal stripes across them) generally denoted NCO's that were Officer's in training.

Since (especially the Kriegsmarine) suffered from a full staffed leadership hierarchy many crewman would automatically be promoted to NCO ranks after 4 months as a sqaud leader on patrol, and then again in another 4 months if not promoted otherwise (and survived!). In a way, for the wrong reasons those that survived long enough to go on multiple patrols either were lucky or were doing something right with a 75% fatality rate; having the automatic promotions (under the conditions) I don't think were a bad thing as anyone that did get them were considered seasoned and (theoretically) knew what they were doing by then.