You gotta be kidding me...

treblesum81 · 06-09-10, 01:54 AM

So I'm set up for a 90° convoy attack sitting at a depth of 250ft (a full 100ft below the thermal layer), silent running, at a dead stop. In the past (TMO 1.9) this tactic allowed me to slip under the destroyer screen undetected, after which time I would either pop up to periscope depth or to about 80ft for a sonar attack. This time, as soon as the DD's got nearby, they started pinging and then dropping depth charges on my head... With pinpoint accuracy no less!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that active sonar doesn't penetrate the thermal layer, so even if they were pinging, they could not get an accurate fix on your position? I could maybe understand the fact that they picked me up at all, but to be able to literally drop depth charges on my deck when their sonar shouldn't even be able to hit me seems more than a little incorrect...

EDIT: This is with TMO 2

EDIT 2: I know the passive sensors were tweaked, but would this affect the active sonar as well?

treblesum81 · 06-09-10, 04:10 AM

On a side note, I've tried this a few more times at different depths and ranges and found something interesting...

As long as you are within a certain range of the escorts (1000y-2000y) they will detect you instantly as soon as any part of your sub even gets near the thermal layer. I succeeded in slipping past the escort ring of the convoy at a depth of 300ft, but then the instant I got to about 200ft-225ft on the way back up the pinging started again. I tried again, waiting longer this time so that I was well behind the front escorts and far in front of the side / rear escorts and the same thing happened... as soon as I got near ~200ft, the pinging started again.

This is a behavior I don't remember getting prior to TMO 2, but I can't 100% disqualify because there are so many variable conditions. I know that TMO enhances the sensors of the AI, but the changelog for this one seems to indicate that they were reduced so all the more confusing...

PS: I didn't mention it before, but this is all happening in mid-december '41.

Red Devil · 06-09-10, 02:24 PM

Asdic could not operate in bad weather or penetrate thermal layers in reality. It does, however, depend on the amount of noise you could be making, were you on silent running? Loading torps is bad for your health, its really quite a noisy process involving chains.

In bad weather, eg: Atlantic, in WW2, sub hunters like Capt Walker RN, could not use Asdic in heavy swell. (and he was a real expert).

Bubblehead1980 · 06-09-10, 02:51 PM

Ducimus reduced the effectiveness of thermal layers in TMO 2.0 said so in change log.

Ducimus · 06-09-10, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Ducimus reduced the effectiveness of thermal layers in TMO 2.0 said so in change log.

Passive only. Though i also reduced how sensitive passive is as well.

I did this because i thought the AI's hydrophones were too sensitive above the layer. Which was a side of tweaking their sensitivy up to such a rate as so you can be heard within reason below the layer. By lowering the thermal layer effect on hydrophones, it allowed me to reduce the hydrophone sensitivty so their not super sensitve above the layer, and not completely deaf when your below it.

edit:
BTW, your speed, wind speed, range to destroyer, silent running, and below layer or not all play a part.

In sum, always have silent running on when you can, and the calmer the weather, the slower you go. Rough seas you can open the throttle up a bit.

treblesum81 · 06-09-10, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Passive only. Though i also reduced how sensitive passive is as well.

I did this because i thought the AI's hydrophones were too sensitive above the layer. Which was a side of tweaking their sensitivy up to such a rate as so you can be heard within reason below the layer. By lowering the thermal layer effect on hydrophones, it allowed me to reduce the hydrophone sensitivty so their not super sensitve above the layer, and not completely deaf when your below it.

edit:
BTW, your speed, wind speed, range to destroyer, silent running, and below layer or not all play a part.

In sum, always have silent running on when you can, and the calmer the weather, the slower you go. Rough seas you can open the throttle up a bit.

I was at a dead stop, in silent running, about 1000-2000 yards from the destroyer(s), and in light to moderate seas. Basically, I was a hole in the water ascending by air pressure only and as soon as the top of my periscope crossed the thermal layer (verified by raising the scope and ascending which caused detection at a deeper depth) I was immediately detected. It almost seems like the net result of the changes, at least under these conditions, is to create a plane in the water where you become instantly visible if any part of your sub crosses it on the way up. More concerning though is the fact that DD's seem to be able to target me with active sonar well below the thermal layer.. After detection, I went as deep as 300ft on silent running at only 1kt and they were able to consistently place depth charges on my deck or at least within 50ft of my sub. I wonder if the reduced thermal layer effect had improved the passive response to active sonar?

Armistead · 06-09-10, 08:07 PM

You can still get by with murder in heavy seas. I haven't noticed any change really, but I stay at scope depth. If they do ping, I'm usually able to get my shot off and get deep enough and evade before they make their run. However, only have 3 patrols in, but overall I like the change, seem to get by with a little more at scope depth.

treblesum81 · 06-11-10, 04:20 AM

I hate to say it but I'm going to have to go back to 1.9.... I'm getting consistently detected and then pinged and sunk... all while well below the thermal layer. I really wish this wasn't the case, since many of the other changes to this version are very nice, but it seems that if the seas are anything other than rough, the thermal layer no longer has any effect.

Red Devil · 06-11-10, 06:30 AM

Your lucky treble, I can even download 1.9, all I get is a file that adobe wants to open.

orangehat44 · 06-11-10, 07:18 AM

Did you read duci's read me file about the sonar and detection. I am still a new captian and TMO is teaching me the hard way on how to make the correct decisions. But Starting in the Asiatic fleet at the beginneing of the war and running into the Luzon Landing forces. I was able to aproach the convoy head on, at slient running 1 knt (50 ish RPMS I think) in dead calm seas, by taking my sargo class down to 350. I really think in TMO 2 you have to play russian roullet with the crush depth in order to survive. Granted When I tried to pop up in the middle of the convoy I was detected as it was day and dead calm, But you certanly can go under their sonar cones. I think 2.0 is great so far, I just have to learn to make the correct decisions and use the sub how its suppose to be used. I tend to be too blood thirsty as Im still new to the game and just want the fire works, but learning how to make the right choices and be patient.

@ red devil, the first file on Duci's first post is the pdf, scroll to the bottom for the 2.0 download.

Red Devil · 06-11-10, 07:47 AM

orange, thanks mate but that was the link I was given. I think I do not want 2.0 after what I have heard, but will look again for 1.9 - my thanks

regarding that link page - this is the only TMO19 download there - the pdf????

orangehat44 · 06-11-10, 08:48 AM

sorry I thought you were talking about 2.0 Im guessing some where on duci's file front page 1.9 still exists but I dunno. Sorry cant be of more help

TwistedFemur · 06-11-10, 09:47 AM

its those super top secret japanese anti sub homing torpedos

treblesum81 · 06-11-10, 02:17 PM

I understand that TMO is supposed to make things more difficult, and I really like the mod (part of the reason I would go back to 1.9 rather than something else), but I really think that the thermal layer effect got reduced too much somehow. I'm really serious when I say that no matter how deep I dive and no matter how silently I'm sitting there, the enemy DD's are able to detect me, PING me, and drop DC's on my decks. Now, again, I don't expect it to be a walk in the park... I don't even expect that they shouldn't be able to detect me at those depths, but they should not be able to accurately ping a submarine 200ft below the thermal layer and put DC's on it as if it was at periscope depth... After all, it was Ducimus himself who described in his "Uber AI Explained" post that the thermal layer will protect a sub against active (and passive) sonar.

Again, I like the mod, I just think this one feature might have gone a little awry. If I'm wrong, I can also accept that, even if it means I won't use this version.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, which file(s) control to the thermal layer characteristics so I can change them myself should I want to?

raymond6751 · 06-11-10, 03:09 PM

I have found that escorts have a harder time tracking you if you keep a 5-10 degree turn going on.

They may get close, but since you are constantly turning, they can't pinpoint your track.

06-09-10, 01:54 AM	#1
treblesum81 Frogman Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 308 Downloads: 71 Uploads: 0	You gotta be kidding me... So I'm set up for a 90° convoy attack sitting at a depth of 250ft (a full 100ft below the thermal layer), silent running, at a dead stop. In the past (TMO 1.9) this tactic allowed me to slip under the destroyer screen undetected, after which time I would either pop up to periscope depth or to about 80ft for a sonar attack. This time, as soon as the DD's got nearby, they started pinging and then dropping depth charges on my head... With pinpoint accuracy no less!! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that active sonar doesn't penetrate the thermal layer, so even if they were pinging, they could not get an accurate fix on your position? I could maybe understand the fact that they picked me up at all, but to be able to literally drop depth charges on my deck when their sonar shouldn't even be able to hit me seems more than a little incorrect... EDIT: This is with TMO 2 EDIT 2: I know the passive sensors were tweaked, but would this affect the active sonar as well? Last edited by treblesum81; 06-09-10 at 02:21 AM.

06-09-10, 02:24 PM	#3
Red Devil The Old Man Join Date: May 2004 Location: Sutton Coldfield England Posts: 1,540 Downloads: 305 Uploads: 0	Asdic could not operate in bad weather or penetrate thermal layers in reality. It does, however, depend on the amount of noise you could be making, were you on silent running? Loading torps is bad for your health, its really quite a noisy process involving chains. In bad weather, eg: Atlantic, in WW2, sub hunters like Capt Walker RN, could not use Asdic in heavy swell. (and he was a real expert). __________________ > > Captain!, there's a destroyer on the por........ periscope is flooded Sir! > Darkness is only the absence of Light; Ignorance is only the absence of knowledge © www.worldwartwo.uk www.captainwalker.uk

06-11-10, 06:30 AM	#9
Red Devil The Old Man Join Date: May 2004 Location: Sutton Coldfield England Posts: 1,540 Downloads: 305 Uploads: 0	Your lucky treble, I can even download 1.9, all I get is a file that adobe wants to open. __________________ > > Captain!, there's a destroyer on the por........ periscope is flooded Sir! > Darkness is only the absence of Light; Ignorance is only the absence of knowledge © www.worldwartwo.uk www.captainwalker.uk

06-11-10, 07:47 AM	#11
Red Devil The Old Man Join Date: May 2004 Location: Sutton Coldfield England Posts: 1,540 Downloads: 305 Uploads: 0	orange, thanks mate but that was the link I was given. I think I do not want 2.0 after what I have heard, but will look again for 1.9 - my thanks regarding that link page - this is the only TMO19 download there - the pdf???? __________________ > > Captain!, there's a destroyer on the por........ periscope is flooded Sir! > Darkness is only the absence of Light; Ignorance is only the absence of knowledge © www.worldwartwo.uk www.captainwalker.uk

06-11-10, 09:47 AM	#13
TwistedFemur Frogman Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 302 Downloads: 72 Uploads: 0	its those super top secret japanese anti sub homing torpedos __________________ <a href="http://www.dewmocracy.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.dewmocracy.com/images/banner_distortion.jpg" border="0" alt="Vote for MTN DEW(R) Distortion(TM) - Dewmocracy.com" /></a>

06-09-10, 04:10 AM	#2
treblesum81 Frogman Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 308 Downloads: 71 Uploads: 0	On a side note, I've tried this a few more times at different depths and ranges and found something interesting... As long as you are within a certain range of the escorts (1000y-2000y) they will detect you instantly as soon as any part of your sub even gets near the thermal layer. I succeeded in slipping past the escort ring of the convoy at a depth of 300ft, but then the instant I got to about 200ft-225ft on the way back up the pinging started again. I tried again, waiting longer this time so that I was well behind the front escorts and far in front of the side / rear escorts and the same thing happened... as soon as I got near ~200ft, the pinging started again. This is a behavior I don't remember getting prior to TMO 2, but I can't 100% disqualify because there are so many variable conditions. I know that TMO enhances the sensors of the AI, but the changelog for this one seems to indicate that they were reduced so all the more confusing... PS: I didn't mention it before, but this is all happening in mid-december '41.

06-09-10, 02:51 PM	#4
Bubblehead1980 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida USA Posts: 7,104 Downloads: 605 Uploads: 44	Ducimus reduced the effectiveness of thermal layers in TMO 2.0 said so in change log.

06-09-10, 08:07 PM	#7
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	You can still get by with murder in heavy seas. I haven't noticed any change really, but I stay at scope depth. If they do ping, I'm usually able to get my shot off and get deep enough and evade before they make their run. However, only have 3 patrols in, but overall I like the change, seem to get by with a little more at scope depth.

06-11-10, 04:20 AM	#8
treblesum81 Frogman Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 308 Downloads: 71 Uploads: 0	I hate to say it but I'm going to have to go back to 1.9.... I'm getting consistently detected and then pinged and sunk... all while well below the thermal layer. I really wish this wasn't the case, since many of the other changes to this version are very nice, but it seems that if the seas are anything other than rough, the thermal layer no longer has any effect.

06-11-10, 07:18 AM	#10
orangehat44 A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 80 Downloads: 48 Uploads: 0	Did you read duci's read me file about the sonar and detection. I am still a new captian and TMO is teaching me the hard way on how to make the correct decisions. But Starting in the Asiatic fleet at the beginneing of the war and running into the Luzon Landing forces. I was able to aproach the convoy head on, at slient running 1 knt (50 ish RPMS I think) in dead calm seas, by taking my sargo class down to 350. I really think in TMO 2 you have to play russian roullet with the crush depth in order to survive. Granted When I tried to pop up in the middle of the convoy I was detected as it was day and dead calm, But you certanly can go under their sonar cones. I think 2.0 is great so far, I just have to learn to make the correct decisions and use the sub how its suppose to be used. I tend to be too blood thirsty as Im still new to the game and just want the fire works, but learning how to make the right choices and be patient. @ red devil, the first file on Duci's first post is the pdf, scroll to the bottom for the 2.0 download.

06-11-10, 08:48 AM	#12
orangehat44 A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 80 Downloads: 48 Uploads: 0	sorry I thought you were talking about 2.0 Im guessing some where on duci's file front page 1.9 still exists but I dunno. Sorry cant be of more help

06-11-10, 02:17 PM	#14
treblesum81 Frogman Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 308 Downloads: 71 Uploads: 0	I understand that TMO is supposed to make things more difficult, and I really like the mod (part of the reason I would go back to 1.9 rather than something else), but I really think that the thermal layer effect got reduced too much somehow. I'm really serious when I say that no matter how deep I dive and no matter how silently I'm sitting there, the enemy DD's are able to detect me, PING me, and drop DC's on my decks. Now, again, I don't expect it to be a walk in the park... I don't even expect that they shouldn't be able to detect me at those depths, but they should not be able to accurately ping a submarine 200ft below the thermal layer and put DC's on it as if it was at periscope depth... After all, it was Ducimus himself who described in his "Uber AI Explained" post that the thermal layer will protect a sub against active (and passive) sonar. Again, I like the mod, I just think this one feature might have gone a little awry. If I'm wrong, I can also accept that, even if it means I won't use this version. EDIT: Out of curiosity, which file(s) control to the thermal layer characteristics so I can change them myself should I want to?

06-11-10, 03:09 PM	#15
raymond6751 Admirable Mike Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,338 Downloads: 421 Uploads: 0	Try turning I have found that escorts have a harder time tracking you if you keep a 5-10 degree turn going on. They may get close, but since you are constantly turning, they can't pinpoint your track. __________________ Game Designer: Close The Atlantic - World War Three https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/...orld-war-three