Gentlemen, I need your help

[jadervason]

Does anyone know what was the fastest submarine that was equipped with a surface-target deck gun? Fastest in terms of submerged speed.

[TLAM Strike]

As far as I can tell.

US Mackerel class (WWII): 11 Knots

UK L class (WWII): 10.5 knots

Peru Abtao class (Post-WWII): 10 knots

UK River, S, U and V Class (WWII): 10 Knots

[jadervason]

Not very impressive, eh? Thanks for your help. I guess there never was, and will never be a fast boat with a deck gun.

Edit: Apparently the Surcouf could make 10 knots?!

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by jadervason

Not very impressive, eh? Thanks for your help. I guess there never was, and will never be a fast boat with a deck gun.

Edit: Apparently the Surcouf could make 10 knots?!

Didn't think to check the French subs. Or WWI boats, which share many similarities to post war subs.

The UK R class submarine of WWI could make 14 knots dived but its 4in deck gun was never fitted because of the drag. The R class was designed to hunt U-Boats making her the first class of Hunter-Killer submarines ever. They had sensitive hydrophones on the bow, a single screw aft and very streamlined hulls/sails, one of them would not have looked out of place in the 1950s.

UK E class subs of WWI could make 10.25 knots dived.

US N and O classes could make 11 knots dived. K, L, M-1 and AA-1 classes could make 10.5 knots. Interestingly the US L boats had in an attempt to reduce the drag of the gun built it so it retracted into the hull. Apparently this was inspired by the Germans.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08040.htm

The WWI German U 66 class could make 11 knots dive, I think it had a retractable gun.

But no, you are never going to find a sub with a deck gun that has a high submerged speed.

[jadervason]

Good stuff my friend. I was aware of the hunter-killer R class. Neat little boats they were.

I hate to be a pest, but among the 'fast' boats, what was the largest gun fitted? I suppose the prerequisite is Type XXI performance or comparable or better.

[TLAM Strike]

I'm guessing you mean of the subs designed for high speed like the Type XXI and not the subs listed above? Of the subs listed above the obvious answer is the Surcouf with its 203mm guns.

The winner I think is the Soviet Zulu I and Whiskey IIs which had twin 57mm and twin 25mm AA guns.

The Type XXI had 20mm cannons.

The Japanese I-201 class had 2 25mm cannons. The Ha-201 had a single 7.7mm machine gun.

[jadervason]

A good hypothetical historical battle might be Surcouf vs one of the British M Class boats. Talk about a glass cannon...

So I guess the boat of my dreams is the Zulu I? It had a snorkel right? I guess you can take down a merchant with a 57mm gun, if you're determined...

[TLAM Strike]

Interesting thing about the M Class was it had to be submerged to reload its cannon.

Some Zulu's were fitted with a snorkel. But it wasn't standard issue on all boats at first, it took a while before sufficient snorts were manufactured.

[jadervason]

Is that so? I would have thought they would have left the shipyard with a snorkel, being a slightly larger brother of the Type XXI. The Whiskey I know was retrofitted but I though the Zulu was designed from the keel up as 'true' submarine.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by jadervason

Is that so? I would have thought they would have left the shipyard with a snorkel, being a slightly larger brother of the Type XXI. The Whiskey I know was retrofitted but I though the Zulu was designed from the keel up as 'true' submarine.

Hmmm... you might be right on that. The first Zulus were not launched until 3 years after the First Whiskeys.

[jadervason]

Taking a few looks around the internet, that double-57mm cannon was a hell of a weapon! But could it bring down a C3 cargo? It was loaded with Tracer-FRAG rounds.

Tell you what, your best bet against an aircraft is to dive, but that sucker would for damn sure make any attacking plane think twice.

Thanks, Strike, for giving me a new toy to lust after. I hope one day I can captain one in SHIII.

[TLAM Strike]

Depends on whats in it's holds. If its ammo then its possible. But I doubt it would get the chance. NATO wouldn't allow ships to run unescorted in time of war.

Actually US planes in WWII started getting guided ASMs believe it or not! Trying to defend against a P-2V armed with a 20nm range missile using guns would be quite hopeless. Interestingly the Harpoon was designed for that, back when Soviet subs had to surface to fire its missiles the 'poon was made so P-3s could hit them fast from beyond visual range.

If you want one for SHIII, I have a 3d model of one laying around but its the no guns version. I have no idea on how to convert one for SHIII as I don't own it, but if you have any experience with doing that I would be willing to release it. I also have the Whiskey and several other 1950's subs.

There is a picture of my Whiskey here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/album.php?u=210904

[jadervason]

A missile of that size on a pure pursuit course is, itself, a target. If you couldn't get your ass underwater fast enough (highly unlikely) then you had damn well better get your guns around! Thank goodness for the 25mm, I suppose.

As far as sinking a C3, well that was exaggeration. Firstly, you'd use all the torpedoes necessary to bring down a C3. But for that lone, 1800 ton, unescorted merchant vessel so far from home...I think a 57mm might do! If you haven't noticed I have a fetish for submarines with cannons. Something about not being defenseless on the surface...

Now, sir, your models are quite impressive. However, I have extremely little experience modifying SHIII, but fortunately (I guess) if someone were to begin on a Zulu class, the Type XXI is a natural starting place. They seem quite similar. I've even found a cutaway drawing of the boat and some interior shots from a surviving ship, if you're into modeling interiors.

Don't you just love the bridge of the Zulu?

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by jadervason

A missile of that size on a pure pursuit course is, itself, a target. If you couldn't get your ass underwater fast enough (highly unlikely) then you had damn well better get your guns around! Thank goodness for the 25mm, I suppose.

As far as sinking a C3, well that was exaggeration. Firstly, you'd use all the torpedoes necessary to bring down a C3. But for that lone, 1800 ton, unescorted merchant vessel so far from home...I think a 57mm might do! If you haven't noticed I have a fetish for submarines with cannons. Something about not being defenseless on the surface...

Now, sir, your models are quite impressive. However, I have extremely little experience modifying SHIII, but fortunately (I guess) if someone were to begin on a Zulu class, the Type XXI is a natural starting place. They seem quite similar. I've even found a cutaway drawing of the boat and some interior shots from a surviving ship, if you're into modeling interiors.

Don't you just love the bridge of the Zulu?

Funny you should mention interiors...

I have not modeled an interior in a long time (Since I was making stuff for Virtual Sailor like 5 years ago.) But I have a full interior of the Zulu sitting around untextured! But its a .GMAX file and for some reason my computer will not run GMAX anymore.


Whenever I see the bridge of the Zulu I cringe at the though of that extra drag. It vaguely reminds me of the bridge of 1930's submarines.

[TLAM Strike]

Hay I got old GMAX working...

Here are a few pics of the Zulu interior I never finished...




It looks kinda strange since I removed every poly you would not see from the inside. But you get the picture of what I was going for...