No map contacts...

[Fattysbox]

So considering that enemy AI is severely weak I've decided on my next patrol to go no map contacts to up the difficulty.

Primarily this will make my convoy approach more difficult since there is no magic circle to judge when you will be detected.

But I was wondering from other skippers here on Subsim what are other things I need to worry about?

1) Manual navigation in harbors so I don't hit other ships?

2) Are hydrophone contacts depicted in map as lines? My guess is no.

3) How attacks done without map contacts? Any thread links would be helpful. Some concerns:

A) Since the stadimeter is broken, how do measure range?
B) AOB measurement?
C) Any calculations for speed?

Thanks all!

J

[kylania]

1) Navigate by sight. 16x TC should be fast enough not to go crazy, but slow enough to avoid horrible AI ships getting in your way.

2) They are not, but if you install one of the key mapping mods you can get back the "follow nearest sound contact" functions.

3) Very difficult from when I tried it since unless you're in perfect weather the standimeter sucks.

Here's an old tutorial that explains it all though. While we don't have all the same tools currently, this is basically how to do it:

http://www.paulwasserman.net/SHIII/

[Fattysbox]

Good link! Thanks!

[fly2002]

Hey just wrote a 1000 word guide to having no map contacts but had it deleted. I guess I "timed out". Give me a few hours and i'll have a shorter version up. ugh....can't believe I lost all of that!!!

Eric

[Fattysbox]

That would be fantastic!

[fly2002]

crap. I've got guests over so it's going to be very abridged but I want to help. I was in the EXACT same boat as you last week so the thread struck a chord with me.

I just finished the book "Hitler's u-boat war 1939-1943 VOL 1 The Hunters" It gave me a LOT of insight into what happened and exactly what i'm trying to sim. It was at the local library

Ok here's a quick snapshot of how i do it. The game is playing out like the book.

No map contacts. Everything on realistic for me except ext camera. ( I like to view my sub sometimes while submerged)

Setup for patrol
Cook should be upgraded completely (three apples)
Bosan "delay morale decay" should be maxed out
Torpedos, pre-heat maxed out.
Torpedos, T2 Electric only....it's what they actually used. Mag detonation for the most part.
Radio, secure communications as maxed out as possible, I'm level 2.


MODS
Increased Torp damage (it's actually more realistic. Read the records, most merchants took just one torp. Even a carrier!!)
Realistic flotation


Ok now for the "hunt".

In the game I patrol at x32 or x64 in "hot" areas where I might expect contact. While patrolling you will will drop to x8 if the watch sees something. As soon as it drops to x8 take TC to x1 immed. Go hit the deck and grab the binocs and take a look around. Your just making sure nothing has popped up. For instance you could have been in TC with a warship headed directly for you. If that was the case he's gonna be closer than a merchant so a quick look through the binocs is a quick look around. In SH5 the crew does not have eagle eyes like they did in SH4. When they spot something it's only a minute or two before you'll see it too.

At this point your likely going to be able to spot something through the TDC and/ or the watch will give you a relative bearing of "smoke on the horizon"

FIND THIS BEARING OR VISUAL CONTACT AND HEAD RIGHT FOR IT AT FLANK SPEED!!! Use the "." heading button to slew your sub in the direction your looking (right at the target).

Now, you need to know which general direction the target is heading. You'll likely see it's shadow in the water in front of it on the horizon but you'll likely see a white "tail" as the target gets a little closer. The white tail is the ships wake as says where it's coming from. So based on that you can tell if its heading left or right in reference to you. If you can't see a tail sit the TDC on it and wait/watch for a trend. Does the target appear to be moving left or right compared to your sub?

Once you've determined the direction the target's heading ...left or right ...it's time to set up an intercept heading. Lets say it appears to head right. Ok. Turn your TDC to a heading of about 70 to 90 degrees and hit that "." button again to slew the ships heading. So now your heading for a 90 degree intercept. As you continue on this heading look left at your target. Does it appear to keep moving in front of you or is it drifting behind? You might have crossed it's path. You just have to eye-ball it.

Without active sonar you are literally eye-balling and "shadowing" a convoy. Just like they really did. Your ranging ability is crap at that range so dont even pull out the map to think of plotting. In fact unless you think you're gonna run into land don't even pull out the map at all. Your eyes are completely through the binocs tdc and as we get closer attack periscope.

Now without map contacts on you have no idea when they can see you. It's frickin awesome. Here's a tip. If you can see them through the TDC your fine. Now....if you can see them through the binocs and there no longer on the horizon but BENEATH it...??...you might want to think of submerging. It will take only one approach on a convoy and being spotted before you'll learn that approximate distance. This whole thing is a really quick learning curve, but that's generally when I begin to submerge.

So you've seen the target. Whichever direction it was in you've run toward it no matter which direction. You've used flank speed to close the distance and now that you can tell while heading directly towards it which direction it seems to be going. At anytime you can stop the sub and look at the target again. Does it appear to be moving left or right. If he was moving right at first, then you turned 90 degrees right to intercept and now he appears to be moving left you may have crossed his path. So keep an eye on the target, don't use time compression. Things will begin to happen quickly. Use standard or flank speed forget about fuel you've got plenty.

Once within the area you think you can be detected submerge but continue at standard (4) speed. You've got plenty of battery power you'll be fine. You're still likely closing the gap to get a good shot.

That was the "hunt" now here's the shot.

The best scenario is a 90 degree angle with about 800m range. Turn your sub accordingly to create this 90 degree angle. Crew to battlestations, silent running on, begin to pre-heat torps (f12)

RANGE: The SH5 standimeter is partially broke but here's how I do it. All intelligence from subsim appears to be correct that I have noticed. For merchants drag it down to the top of the smoke stacks. For escorts drag it down to the tippy top of the mast. Personal tip, DO NOT shoot at anything beyond 1000m. Chance of missing is too great. With your slow AZZ electric torps the further the distance the more accurate things will have to be. If it's beyond 1100m I personally let em sail past.

AOB: perhaps the toughest to guess it take some practice but again, here are my tips. I've tried the AOB calculators to no avail.
DO NOT think of what it would look like plotted if you had the map contacts on. Forget about it. What your thinking is wrong. (At least it was in my case)
DO simply look at the target. What does "he" see? Keep asking yourself that. I've generally found through research that I tend to use too MUCH AOB. If it "looks" like 50 degrees to me it's probably only 40 degrees. But this will come with practice. Dont pull the map out. Keep looking through the periscope.

SPEED: Merchants love 8-10 knots. 8 Knots tends to work well for me. But now that you'll be looking through the periscope more and spending less time on the map trying to frantically plot as the target closes you'll quickly learn. Hm....that speed looks to be about right. If a ship is zig-zagging, set it for 4 or 5 knots. Warships and escorts are tougher, usually 12-15 knots. (I've only sank 2 compared to 19 merchants)

I personally don't use salvo's but I usually let at least two fish go with each shot. Fire....give it a second....make sure my periscope is still on it, and fire again.

NOTE: Don't worry about missing with the torps. You DONT SUCK ....your simply being historically accurate. The fun and drama of this game are greatly increased by REALLY shadowing a convoy, submerging, setting up for the shot and waiting those tense minutes as your torpedos make their way to the target! One successful approach and hit will make you think you were crazy for ever ruining the game by sitting on a nav map and plotting feverishly.

Sorry it's a little long winded but try it out it's immensely satisfying. Feel free to ask some questions!

Now my wife hates this game!!

Eric

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by fly2002

crap. I've got guests over so it's going to be very abridged but I want to help. I was in the EXACT same boat as you last week so the thread struck a chord with me.

I just finished the book "Hitler's u-boat war 1939-1943 VOL 1 The Hunters" It gave me a LOT of insight into what happened and exactly what i'm trying to sim. It was at the local library

Ok here's a quick snapshot of how i do it. The game is playing out like the book.

No map contacts. Everything on realistic for me except ext camera. ( I like to view my sub sometimes while submerged)

Setup for patrol
Cook should be upgraded completely (three apples)
Bosan "delay morale decay" should be maxed out
Torpedos, pre-heat maxed out.
Torpedos, T2 Electric only....it's what they actually used. Mag detonation for the most part.
Radio, secure communications as maxed out as possible, I'm level 2.


MODS
Increased Torp damage (it's actually more realistic. Read the records, most merchants took just one torp. Even a carrier!!)
Realistic flotation


Ok now for the "hunt".

In the game I patrol at x32 or x64 in "hot" areas where I might expect contact. While patrolling you will will drop to x8 if the watch sees something. As soon as it drops to x8 take TC to x1 immed. Go hit the deck and grab the binocs and take a look around. Your just making sure nothing has popped up. For instance you could have been in TC with a warship headed directly for you. If that was the case he's gonna be closer than a merchant so a quick look through the binocs is a quick look around. In SH5 the crew does not have eagle eyes like they did in SH4. When they spot something it's only a minute or two before you'll see it too.

At this point your likely going to be able to spot something through the TDC and/ or the watch will give you a relative bearing of "smoke on the horizon"

FIND THIS BEARING OR VISUAL CONTACT AND HEAD RIGHT FOR IT AT FLANK SPEED!!! Use the "." heading button to slew your sub in the direction your looking (right at the target).

Now, you need to know which general direction the target is heading. You'll likely see it's shadow in the water in front of it on the horizon but you'll likely see a white "tail" as the target gets a little closer. The white tail is the ships wake as says where it's coming from. So based on that you can tell if its heading left or right in reference to you. If you can't see a tail sit the TDC on it and wait/watch for a trend. Does the target appear to be moving left or right compared to your sub?

Once you've determined the direction the target's heading ...left or right ...it's time to set up an intercept heading. Lets say it appears to head right. Ok. Turn your TDC to a heading of about 70 to 90 degrees and hit that "." button again to slew the ships heading. So now your heading for a 90 degree intercept. As you continue on this heading look left at your target. Does it appear to keep moving in front of you or is it drifting behind? You might have crossed it's path. You just have to eye-ball it.

Without active sonar you are literally eye-balling and "shadowing" a convoy. Just like they really did. Your ranging ability is crap at that range so dont even pull out the map to think of plotting. In fact unless you think you're gonna run into land don't even pull out the map at all. Your eyes are completely through the binocs tdc and as we get closer attack periscope.

Now without map contacts on you have no idea when they can see you. It's frickin awesome. Here's a tip. If you can see them through the TDC your fine. Now....if you can see them through the binocs and there no longer on the horizon but BENEATH it...??...you might want to think of submerging. It will take only one approach on a convoy and being spotted before you'll learn that approximate distance. This whole thing is a really quick learning curve, but that's generally when I begin to submerge.

So you've seen the target. Whichever direction it was in you've run toward it no matter which direction. You've used flank speed to close the distance and now that you can tell while heading directly towards it which direction it seems to be going. At anytime you can stop the sub and look at the target again. Does it appear to be moving left or right. If he was moving right at first, then you turned 90 degrees right to intercept and now he appears to be moving left you may have crossed his path. So keep an eye on the target, don't use time compression. Things will begin to happen quickly. Use standard or flank speed forget about fuel you've got plenty.

Once within the area you think you can be detected submerge but continue at standard (4) speed. You've got plenty of battery power you'll be fine. You're still likely closing the gap to get a good shot.

That was the "hunt" now here's the shot.

The best scenario is a 90 degree angle with about 800m range. Turn your sub accordingly to create this 90 degree angle. Crew to battlestations, silent running on, begin to pre-heat torps (f12)

RANGE: The SH5 standimeter is partially broke but here's how I do it. All intelligence from subsim appears to be correct that I have noticed. For merchants drag it down to the top of the smoke stacks. For escorts drag it down to the tippy top of the mast. Personal tip, DO NOT shoot at anything beyond 1000m. Chance of missing is too great. With your slow AZZ electric torps the further the distance the more accurate things will have to be. If it's beyond 1100m I personally let em sail past.

AOB: perhaps the toughest to guess it take some practice but again, here are my tips. I've tried the AOB calculators to no avail.
DO NOT think of what it would look like plotted if you had the map contacts on. Forget about it. What your thinking is wrong. (At least it was in my case)
DO simply look at the target. What does "he" see? Keep asking yourself that. I've generally found through research that I tend to use too MUCH AOB. If it "looks" like 50 degrees to me it's probably only 40 degrees. But this will come with practice. Dont pull the map out. Keep looking through the periscope.

SPEED: Merchants love 8-10 knots. 8 Knots tends to work well for me. But now that you'll be looking through the periscope more and spending less time on the map trying to frantically plot as the target closes you'll quickly learn. Hm....that speed looks to be about right. If a ship is zig-zagging, set it for 4 or 5 knots. Warships and escorts are tougher, usually 12-15 knots. (I've only sank 2 compared to 19 merchants)

I personally don't use salvo's but I usually let at least two fish go with each shot. Fire....give it a second....make sure my periscope is still on it, and fire again.

NOTE: Don't worry about missing with the torps. You DONT SUCK ....your simply being historically accurate. The fun and drama of this game are greatly increased by REALLY shadowing a convoy, submerging, setting up for the shot and waiting those tense minutes as your torpedos make their way to the target! One successful approach and hit will make you think you were crazy for ever ruining the game by sitting on a nav map and plotting feverishly.

Sorry it's a little long winded but try it out it's immensely satisfying. Feel free to ask some questions!

Now my wife hates this game!!

Eric

Awesome post! thanks mate

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Fattysbox

So considering that enemy AI is severely weak I've decided on my next patrol to go no map contacts to up the difficulty.

Primarily this will make my convoy approach more difficult since there is no magic circle to judge when you will be detected.

But I was wondering from other skippers here on Subsim what are other things I need to worry about?

1) Manual navigation in harbors so I don't hit other ships?

2) Are hydrophone contacts depicted in map as lines? My guess is no.

3) How attacks done without map contacts? Any thread links would be helpful. Some concerns:

A) Since the stadimeter is broken, how do measure range?
B) AOB measurement?
C) Any calculations for speed?

Thanks all!

J

Good call, it's better that way, much less arcade

1. Definitely, you need to be on the bridge during the last 5 km into port. Just like a real captain.

2. No, though that would be nice, no lines unless you mark them your self. I suggest getting CCIP's Command Keys mod and get your sonar guy to call out the closest ship, that is realistic.

3. Manually, of course. The stadimeter works pretty well, I can hit ships about 80% of the time within 1600m. Just get the line between stack top and mast top. Speed: it will compute it for you, or your can use the 3 minute rule. I generally estimate it unless I have no escort pressure. Merchants 5-8, escorts 6-10. AOB, just eyeball it.

Hitman has a good tutorial for this too. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=1647

Edit: Eric, great post!

.

[fly2002]

Thanks Neal,

You drag the standimeter down between the mast and top of smoke stack? Just on merchants? On all ships? I've been using top of smoke stack for merchants and top of mast for escorts/warships.

Eric