There and Back Again

SubBadger · 03-11-10, 08:18 AM

Afternoon All

Once given a patrol mission, what would be a WWII Subs procedure for actually getting there? I've spend ages looking for clues but I suspect I'm desperately seeking subs in all the wrong places.

What I mean is, They moved faster on the surface, but used up the diesel which I presume shortened their range. But if they traveled submerged, the war would presumably have been over before they got to there designated patrol areas!

So would it have been surface travel up to a certain point (enemy contact not withstanding) and then submerged for the patrol? Or surface travel at night and submerged during the day?

One thing which in the sim at least would seem to me to suggest surfaced travel, would be the ability to speed up time. The actual skippers would have known the depth they were traveling in using their charts, but as far as I know this is something that "SH4" does not replicate and so any time accelerated submerged travel would carry a danger of grounding unless you were on the surface?

Badger

AVGWarhawk · 03-11-10, 09:26 AM

15 kts was the norm to get to patrol areas. Normally about 8 days from Midway to Japan shipping. They would run on two engines and that would save fuel. Sometimes the bilges were filled with fuel to add range. Once on stations the better part of the day was submerged patrol to avoid aircraft. Night time surface for patrol and battery recharge. It is unfortunate the game fuel is a bugger and we need to travel at around 9 kts. Later on if you are using RSRD there are refits ships you can use to fuel.

Charts? The charts the skippers had were found at the local library and did not have depth. Some skippers had just old maps to work with or a lame National Geographic map that was outdated. Charts showing depth around islands were not available. Anyway, if you are in TC the game will stop you if you are about to ground....most times anyway!

Dread Knot · 03-11-10, 09:27 AM

The procedure for US subs in the Pacific was mostly movement on the surface. For a short period at the beginning of the war US subs were recommended to travel submerged when within a certain radius of a Japanese air base, but that was found to cut too much into transit time to the patrol area. When decent air search radar became available, there really was no excuse not to travel on the surface, as any Japanese planes could be dodged with plenty of warning.

U-Boats, on the other hand were driven into submerging by day and travel on the surface by night. With the complete Allied control of the air, even night eventually became too dangerous as well--thus the snorkel and the Type XXI.

To reduce diesel burned up in transit across the Pacific a cruise speed of 9 to 10 knots is best. That should leave plenty of fuel for a patrol off Japan.

SubBadger · 03-11-10, 09:33 AM

Thanks lads

Inner Sound · 03-11-10, 06:45 PM

AVGWarhawk wrote

Quote:

Charts? The charts the skippers had were found at the local library and did not have depth. Some skippers had just old maps to work with or a lame National Geographic map that was outdated. Charts showing depth around islands were not available. Anyway, if you are in TC the game will stop you if you are about to ground....most times anyway!

That can't be right: Surely the Admiralty surveyed the whole world in the 19th century, and those charts were commercially available. Plus the USN had been nosing out the Pacific for years prior, knowing full well war with Japan was possible.

Or am I just a victim of ancient imperialist flannel?

Admiral8Q · 03-11-10, 07:15 PM

Use the "Depth under keel" to figure how deep you can go. It's an active 'ping' so don't use it if destroyers are nearby. I find 40 to 50 feet is safe even in the shallowest waters on time compression. Plus the observation periscope sticks out enough to spot any aircraft during the day.

Bubblehead1980 · 03-11-10, 08:32 PM

Many of the older pre war skippers followed the pre war doctrine that most used well into late 42 and into 43 of running submerged during daylight when in patrol area or near Japanese airbases and running on surface at night to recharge batteries.This made subs a slightly mobile minefield and targets had to come to you.New breed of skippers decided to run on surface, using radar and diving for attack or evasion.If a plane came along, they would dive, then surface a few minutes later.This proved much more effective in finding ships and extending patrol time since there was less recharging of batteries.Recharging batteries uses fuel, esp in the game.

Unfortunately the devs did not give us four engines as fleetboats really had, you have two but are labeled 1 and 3 and 2 and 4 in the game, but they are just two engines so cant run 15 knots to patrol area, then have plenty of fuel to stay on coast.In mods like TMO ahead standard will give you 10 knots, best speed.

Admiral8Q · 03-11-10, 08:59 PM

I find, early in the game, that if you get two planes incoming on radar then it is Zero's. Those are tough and it's better to dive. A lone one is usually a Betty. If I'm in a rush, I dive to 40'/45' until it's past. Otherwise I take control of the AAA gun and give it hell. If I don't destroy it, I at least send it off in flames!

If you get a good gunner crewman though, it's fun to watch him kill it from the bridge.

SubBadger · 03-12-10, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admiral8Q

I find 40 to 50 feet is safe even in the shallowest waters on time compression.

I just completed the War Patrol mission which tasks you with dropping off a spy and I spent a lot of time at that depth. At one point my depth below keel ping reported five feet! (Actually I never considered who might be around to hear that ping! Good safety tip thanks Admiral)

I spent a tense few minutes trying to decide whether or not I was going to run into a large rock on the sea bed. I was studying it from all angles as the sub swam closer and right up until the last second I couldn't decide whether or not I was going to get my whiskers through!

In the end I got by by the merest squeak, but subsequently I wonder if the rocks actually do pose a simulated danger anyway, since I must have passed many more large ones when I wasn't watching and I can't have been lucky every time.

A lot of the water in the latter part of that mission is shallow and three or four times I found myself diving to periscope depth on the report of a plane. I wondered whether periscope depth would be deep enough to hide me to be honest, but using my cheating external view ( I do love my external views) I went as high as I could and found that I couldn't see the sub. Of course whether it follows that the simulated plane couldn't either...well that'd be another matter I guess. But that said, I'd have to admit I couldn't see the plane either, although I could hear it.

I managed to make it to the objective relatively unscathed though and the spy was safely put ashore in his rubber raft. I say "relatively" because I did have a small dent in the hull I think, due to my own stupidity.

During one of those shallow plane avoiding dives I got a message and instead of pressing "M" to read it, I instinctively hit "C" as in "communications" (at least in my head!) which of course is Crash Dive!!

By the time I'd countermanded the order (Belay that crash dive order ya scurvy dogs!!.. Ok..so no idea why my American Sub Commander just stepped out of Pirates of the Caribbean.

) I'd already hit the sea bed and there was water spraying from those valves in the control room. You know the ones? The ones that always seem to start spraying in movies, so that the sailors can rush around turning them off!

Actually I didn't manage to work out how to turn them off at all and they happilly showered my charts from that point until the end of the mission. I decided assigning a repair crew might be the thing, but I couldn't seem to find anything broken to fix. But on the plus side it was rather atmospheric... until for some reason I got Gene Kelly "Singing in the Rain" stuck in my head and that just ruined it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admiral8Q

I find, early in the game, that if you get two planes incoming on radar then it is Zero's. Those are tough and it's better to dive. A lone one is usually a Betty. If I'm in a rush, I dive to 40'/45' until it's past. Otherwise I take control of the AAA gun and give it hell. If I don't destroy it, I at least send it off in flames!

Won't he go tell his mates where you are though?

Badger

AVGWarhawk · 03-12-10, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Sound

AVGWarhawk wrote
That can't be right: Surely the Admiralty surveyed the whole world in the 19th century, and those charts were commercially available. Plus the USN had been nosing out the Pacific for years prior, knowing full well war with Japan was possible.

Or am I just a victim of ancient imperialist flannel?

No sir. Eco sounding for contour of he sea floor really did not start until after the war. Read up on the Playboy submarine by the name of Archerfish! Great read! In all reality we did not have detailed maps of any of the islands. First patrols were done with maps from the local library or magzines.

AVGWarhawk · 03-12-10, 11:20 AM

early chart for subs:

Admiral8Q · 03-12-10, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubBadger

I spent a tense few minutes trying to decide whether or not I was going to run into a large rock on the sea bed. I was studying it from all angles as the sub swam closer and right up until the last second I couldn't decide whether or not I was going to get my whiskers through!

In the end I got by by the merest squeak, but subsequently I wonder if the rocks actually do pose a simulated danger anyway, since I must have passed many more large ones when I wasn't watching and I can't have been lucky every time.

Those rocks pose no threat, they're just eye candy.

Quote:

A lot of the water in the latter part of that mission is shallow and three or four times I found myself diving to periscope depth on the report of a plane. I wondered whether periscope depth would be deep enough to hide me to be honest, but using my cheating external view ( I do love my external views) I went as high as I could and found that I couldn't see the sub. Of course whether it follows that the simulated plane couldn't either...well that'd be another matter I guess. But that said, I'd have to admit I couldn't see the plane either, although I could hear it.

Unless they spot you on the surface, they don't know you're there if the sub is completely submerged. I have all graphics set to maximum on my game (I have a decent video card) and you can see the sub underwater from the surface. I'll take a screenie and post it here.

Quote:

During one of those shallow plane avoiding dives I got a message and instead of pressing "M" to read it, I instinctively hit "C" as in "communications" (at least in my head!) which of course is Crash Dive!!

Heh heh!

Once my cat jumped up on my keyboard while I was evading depth charges and launched decoys which got the dd's off my tail! Good Kittie, I gave her a promotion from "Nice Kittie" to "Good Kittie" and issued extra treat rations!

I haven't thought of launching decoys for years after playing so many multiplayer games in SH2/DC where it won't fool the human players.

Quote:

By the time I'd countermanded the order (Belay that crash dive order ya scurvy dogs!!.. Ok..so no idea why my American Sub Commander just stepped out of Pirates of the Caribbean.

)

Arrgh Matey

Too bad you couldn't plunder the merchants for extra fuel or deck gun rounds.

Quote:

Won't he go tell his mates where you are though?

Badger

If they send more Betty's, shoot em' up. If it's Zero's, dive then!

03-11-10, 08:18 AM	#1
SubBadger Swabbie Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 14 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	There and Back Again Afternoon All Once given a patrol mission, what would be a WWII Subs procedure for actually getting there? I've spend ages looking for clues but I suspect I'm desperately seeking subs in all the wrong places. What I mean is, They moved faster on the surface, but used up the diesel which I presume shortened their range. But if they traveled submerged, the war would presumably have been over before they got to there designated patrol areas! So would it have been surface travel up to a certain point (enemy contact not withstanding) and then submerged for the patrol? Or surface travel at night and submerged during the day? One thing which in the sim at least would seem to me to suggest surfaced travel, would be the ability to speed up time. The actual skippers would have known the depth they were traveling in using their charts, but as far as I know this is something that "SH4" does not replicate and so any time accelerated submerged travel would carry a danger of grounding unless you were on the surface? Badger

03-11-10, 09:26 AM	#2
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,257 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	15 kts was the norm to get to patrol areas. Normally about 8 days from Midway to Japan shipping. They would run on two engines and that would save fuel. Sometimes the bilges were filled with fuel to add range. Once on stations the better part of the day was submerged patrol to avoid aircraft. Night time surface for patrol and battery recharge. It is unfortunate the game fuel is a bugger and we need to travel at around 9 kts. Later on if you are using RSRD there are refits ships you can use to fuel. Charts? The charts the skippers had were found at the local library and did not have depth. Some skippers had just old maps to work with or a lame National Geographic map that was outdated. Charts showing depth around islands were not available. Anyway, if you are in TC the game will stop you if you are about to ground....most times anyway! __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

03-11-10, 07:15 PM	#6
Admiral8Q Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada Posts: 1,077 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	Use the "Depth under keel" to figure how deep you can go. It's an active 'ping' so don't use it if destroyers are nearby. I find 40 to 50 feet is safe even in the shallowest waters on time compression. Plus the observation periscope sticks out enough to spot any aircraft during the day. __________________

03-11-10, 08:59 PM	#8
Admiral8Q Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada Posts: 1,077 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	I find, early in the game, that if you get two planes incoming on radar then it is Zero's. Those are tough and it's better to dive. A lone one is usually a Betty. If I'm in a rush, I dive to 40'/45' until it's past. Otherwise I take control of the AAA gun and give it hell. If I don't destroy it, I at least send it off in flames! If you get a good gunner crewman though, it's fun to watch him kill it from the bridge. __________________

03-12-10, 11:20 AM	#11
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,257 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	early chart for subs: __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

03-11-10, 09:27 AM	#3
Dread Knot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,288 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	The procedure for US subs in the Pacific was mostly movement on the surface. For a short period at the beginning of the war US subs were recommended to travel submerged when within a certain radius of a Japanese air base, but that was found to cut too much into transit time to the patrol area. When decent air search radar became available, there really was no excuse not to travel on the surface, as any Japanese planes could be dodged with plenty of warning. U-Boats, on the other hand were driven into submerging by day and travel on the surface by night. With the complete Allied control of the air, even night eventually became too dangerous as well--thus the snorkel and the Type XXI. To reduce diesel burned up in transit across the Pacific a cruise speed of 9 to 10 knots is best. That should leave plenty of fuel for a patrol off Japan.

03-11-10, 09:33 AM	#4
SubBadger Swabbie Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 14 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Thanks lads

03-11-10, 08:32 PM	#7
Bubblehead1980 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida USA Posts: 7,105 Downloads: 605 Uploads: 44	Many of the older pre war skippers followed the pre war doctrine that most used well into late 42 and into 43 of running submerged during daylight when in patrol area or near Japanese airbases and running on surface at night to recharge batteries.This made subs a slightly mobile minefield and targets had to come to you.New breed of skippers decided to run on surface, using radar and diving for attack or evasion.If a plane came along, they would dive, then surface a few minutes later.This proved much more effective in finding ships and extending patrol time since there was less recharging of batteries.Recharging batteries uses fuel, esp in the game. Unfortunately the devs did not give us four engines as fleetboats really had, you have two but are labeled 1 and 3 and 2 and 4 in the game, but they are just two engines so cant run 15 knots to patrol area, then have plenty of fuel to stay on coast.In mods like TMO ahead standard will give you 10 knots, best speed.