Importance of sub & where it stands in navy arsenal?

[spaceman8888]

Hi everyone

Well; I have remote interest in war games & I hardly like'd FPS or RPG genre.. except for very few games like Deus Ex; (as for COD or MOH just didn't find shooting mindlessly as a way of feeling real history) SH3 changed all of it .. it just had all right ingredients i was looking for.. so; as far as games are concerned .. for now; SH3 GWX would be only way I will be part of WW2 ..so here I am & into WW2 ..

Thanks to lads @ Ubisoft & "GWX" Team for creating perfect portal to 1939!! where I command U-boat...

SH3 in my books goes as truly a great sim ..

& here r questions.. just out of curiousty

in comparing all naval combat ship .. where does sub stand??

& also in terms of complexity .. how would sub fare to say battleships, etc??

& if you were in navy.. would you pride yourself to sub cmdr?

[JamesT73J]

This is a subject in itself, and your question was one that Doenitz himself had to wrestle with at the start of WW2.

The German Navy in the 30s were all about Battleships. Big surface groups roaming about the seas pounding convoys, etc. Doenitz favoured the U-Boat, and struggled to get the numbers of hulls he wanted, and started the war with a pretty pitiful number. Research has shown (don't have the details to hand, but Ali Cremer mentions it in his book, U-333) that ultimately Germany still would not have managed adequate numbers even if Doenitz had his way, but that's another story.

In terms of prestige U-Boats were a highly sought-after branch of the Kriegsmarine - an elite. Submarines were - are - dangerous things. The reputation of the U-Boat arm remained high throughout the war, even though - and this cannot be overstated - the odds they faced after 1943 were to all intents suicidal.

The development of the battle of the atlantic is absolutely fascinating history. Aces Of the Deep a 15yr old game, had a large historical section in the manual, and the subject warrants further reading. There's no other form of warfare where the hunter so brutally became the hunted.

As regards the submarine operationally in WW2, as you'll see stated elsewhere, 'submersible torpedo boat' is probably a better name. The submarine was lethal for a period of time; countermeasures existed, but the organisation, structure, and experience to use them meant most U-boats were more at risk of sinking by misadventure than by enemy action. This changed incredibly rapidly though, and from 1941 the U-Boats were basically reactive. The best commanders were dead or POW's; meanwhile allied ASW crews simply got better and better. Huge strides in intelligence (cryptography), technology (direction finding, radar), tactics, statistical analysis (Optimised search patterns for aircraft, something like 2 wellingtons keeping the whole of the Bay of Biscay under surveillance) meant that U-Boats had to stay under, just to avoid detection.

Underwater the VII and IX series were slow, blind, and had limited endurance. This was crucial later on in the war, when ASW groups knew that if they didn't kill a U-boat, they only had to exhaust it.

It remains a credit to the professionalism of the Kriegsmarine that to the end of the war, even when their work was futile, the U-boats attracted such massive, massive allied resources.




James

P.S. Hyman Rickover learnt in the 50's that despite all the improvements in sensors, quietening and speed, Diesel-Electric boats still had the endurance problem; an enemy merely had to stay in contact and exhaust the boat. The answer? What we have today. That man was amazing.

[spaceman8888]

Originally Posted by JamesT73J

This is a subject in itself, and your question was one that Doenitz himself had to wrestle with at the start of WW2.

The German Navy in the 30s were all about Battleships. Big surface groups roaming about the seas pounding convoys, etc. Doenitz favoured the U-Boat, and struggled to get the numbers of hulls he wanted, and started the war with a pretty pitiful number. Research has shown (don't have the details to hand, but Ali Cremer mentions it in his book, U-333) that ultimately Germany still would not have managed adequate numbers even if Doenitz had his way, but that's another story.

In terms of prestige U-Boats were a highly sought-after branch of the Kriegsmarine - an elite. Submarines were - are - dangerous things. The reputation of the U-Boat arm remained high throughout the war, even though - and this cannot be overstated - the odds they faced after 1943 were to all intents suicidal.

The development of the battle of the atlantic is absolutely fascinating history. Aces Of the Deep a 15yr old game, had a large historical section in the manual, and the subject warrants further reading. There's no other form of warfare where the hunter so brutally became the hunted.

As regards the submarine operationally in WW2, as you'll see stated elsewhere, 'submersible torpedo boat' is probably a better name. The submarine was lethal for a period of time; countermeasures existed, but the organisation, structure, and experience to use them meant most U-boats were more at risk of sinking by misadventure than by enemy action. This changed incredibly rapidly though, and from 1941 the U-Boats were basically reactive. The best commanders were dead or POW's; meanwhile allied ASW crews simply got better and better. Huge strides in intelligence (cryptography), technology (direction finding, radar), tactics, statistical analysis (Optimised search patterns for aircraft, something like 2 wellingtons keeping the whole of the Bay of Biscay under surveillance) meant that U-Boats had to stay under, just to avoid detection.

Underwater the VII and IX series were slow, blind, and had limited endurance. This was crucial later on in the war, when ASW groups knew that if they didn't kill a U-boat, they only had to exhaust it.

It remains a credit to the professionalism of the Kriegsmarine that to the end of the war, even when their work was futile, the U-boats attracted such massive, massive allied resources.




James

P.S. Hyman Rickover learnt in the 50's that despite all the improvements in sensors, quietening and speed, Diesel-Electric boats still had the endurance problem; an enemy merely had to stay in contact and exhaust the boat. The answer? What we have today. That man was amazing.

Uh..I see; thanks James for summarizing it so well, am currently reading Aces of Deep manual; any other resource you may point me to?
& just to add due to SH3 in last few days I watched Das Boot, Red October & K-19;
I wouldnt praise Das Boot as its obvious; but I would say this no words can describe what it is to have SH3 after watching that movie; that's if you have never played any sub sim before & knew too less on it as well.. which is my case

[FIREWALL]

Excellent post James.


And Welcome Aboard Spaceman 8888

[JamesT73J]

Originally Posted by spaceman8888

Uh..I see; thanks James for summarizing it so well, am currently reading Aces of Deep manual; any other resource you may point me to?
& just to add due to SH3 in last few days I watched Das Boot, Red October & K-19;
I wouldnt praise Das Boot as its obvious; but I would say this no words can describe what it is to have SH3 after watching that movie; that's if you have never played any sub sim before & knew too less on it as well.. which is my case

There's plenty - I enjoyed 'Black May' by Michael Gannon, which details the culmination of the ASW effort in May 1943, when all the bad news came at once for the U-boat force. Like many things in life, one is left with the impressions that it is many little things that added up to rather a lot.

The personal accounts are very good - Peter Cremer's U-333, Werner's 'Iron Coffins' (both captains survived, which in itself is noteworthy).

Secondly, the web has loads of good stuff. uboatarchive.net is fascinating, just fof the ASW accounts. You get a picture of a USN and RN that are absolutely at the top of their game, facing an increasingly inexperienced enemy. The methodical precision with which U-boats were hunted down to destruction is quite chilling reading, and an insight into the utter futility of the war.

Read about I-52 (the Japanese cargo sub) for perhaps an ultimate case study in exactly what the Allies were capable of by 1944. Listen to the recordings on the net (chilling). Radar. Sonobuoys (in 1944!!!), homing torpedoes, intelligence intercepts. Basically, a hit in the middle of the Atlantic ocean, executed like a contract killing. Incredible.

[spaceman8888]

Originally Posted by JamesT73J

There's plenty - I enjoyed 'Black May' by Michael Gannon, which details the culmination of the ASW effort in May 1943, when all the bad news came at once for the U-boat force. Like many things in life, one is left with the impressions that it is many little things that added up to rather a lot.

The personal accounts are very good - Peter Cremer's U-333, Werner's 'Iron Coffins' (both captains survived, which in itself is noteworthy).

Secondly, the web has loads of good stuff. uboatarchive.net is fascinating, just fof the ASW accounts. You get a picture of a USN and RN that are absolutely at the top of their game, facing an increasingly inexperienced enemy. The methodical precision with which U-boats were hunted down to destruction is quite chilling reading, and an insight into the utter futility of the war.

Read about I-52 (the Japanese cargo sub) for perhaps an ultimate case study in exactly what the Allies were capable of by 1944. Listen to the recordings on the net (chilling). Radar. Sonobuoys (in 1944!!!), homing torpedoes, intelligence intercepts. Basically, a hit in the middle of the Atlantic ocean, executed like a contract killing. Incredible.

you suck .. aint seen more crappier response


Not really (sry, joking) .. again _ thanks, how mny would help a total newbie with that enthusiasm & spirit .. Thanks James .. I will chk 'em asap
you are brilliant & awesome ..
& same goes for subsim community

meanwhile: aces of deep historic account was good & I checked some highly opinated topics here & I did got to know quite a lot .. & subsim is really a goldmine too; though I have been a less than a week old here .. but I have seen all amazing mods & my colletion spans & would fare quite as good as vets here & for that I am heavily indebted .. if only to say for just having access to 'em .. I have to say the number of files in my SH3 folder now rival only to my Orbiter Installation ..

So thaks once again SUBSIM !!

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

Excellent post James.


And Welcome Aboard Spaceman 8888

thanks buddy..

[ryanglavin]

Well, in todays standing, we could say Submarines helped topple The Soviet Union and help america win the cold war. The soviets knew they could barely use thier surface ships with so many submarines right outside thier bases.

[maillemaker]

Not to mention, of course, that ballistic missile submarines are one leg of our nuclear triad.

They provide an unknown point of launch for nuclear missiles that cannot be easily preemptively taken out.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by spaceman8888

again _ thanks, how mny would help a total newbie with that enthusiasm & spirit

Welcome to SUBSIM. Ask away.

[ryanglavin]

Submarines= probably the best movable nuclear missile base...

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

Not to mention, of course, that ballistic missile submarines are one leg of our nuclear triad.

They provide an unknown point of launch for nuclear missiles that cannot be easily preemptively taken out.

Beware the Ides of the Three-Legged Table. One leg goes, the other two have nothing to support the load. Where do we go from there?

[ryanglavin]

Originally Posted by krashkart

Beware the Ides of the Three-Legged Table. One leg goes, the other two have nothing to support the load. Where do we go from there?

Uh, we use the subs and nuke anything else?

[maillemaker]

One leg goes, the other two have nothing to support the load. Where do we go from there?

The remaining leg still makes for a club that can be used to destroy the world.