1945 patrol....decoys in TMO RSRD

Bubblehead1980 · 01-28-10, 02:23 PM

Playing a career in Feb 1945 with a Tench class, first patrol in Yellow Sea.Afer 6 days in area with nothing, boom, convoy with one large freighter, one small and 3 escorts...PB 103, etorufu escort and type AB coastal defense ship, all with radar so no night surface but with ST radar(periscope radar) on the night scope and the color lense, easier to do scope shots at night so went for it.

Attacked and sank the large freighter with four Mark 18's, two hit the small but one was a dud so it didnt sink.After 6 hours of evasion with about 200 feet of water to hide in,escaped, decoys helped, only one charged came real close, shook the hell out of my boat.Was middle of day by this point.

After a long end around, was ahead at dusk when spotted 4 fishing vessels, guessed i had time for some gun action, so went for battle surface, quickly sank the fishing boats.Night time, moved in on convoy for scope shot with stern tubes.At 2100 yards, was ready to fire when the outside escort started pinging me, adjusted target speed hoping theyd still hit and fired, dropped scope, went ahead flank and headed for the bottom.Fortunately was by now nearly to the Tsushima Strait, had 470 feet under me.At 100 feet, 150 feet and 200 feet I dropped decoys, then went to 1 knot and leveled off at 350 feet .

I could hear the escort roaring in and then counted many splashes, then many loud explosions but could tell they were all above me, decoys worked again.They pounded on the decoys in ideal sonar conditions, flat calm seas, while I snaked away.The two fish missed the target, ah well, do it again.

Now, in real life were decoys that effective? I dont mind them being perfect in the game, just curious.Ive launched them and had them only distract the escorts for small amount of time, but they are great.

Ducimus · 01-28-10, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Now, in real life were decoys that effective?

No idea! Info is hard to come by on many things associated with US subs. I made them at their current effiency because:

a.) As long as you had to wait for them, i thought they ought to be a significant upgrade.

b.) From previously playing SH3, i found decoys a disappointment most of the time. I decided that combined with the above mentioned point, this dissapointment was to be avoided.

and

c.) probably most importantly, The japanese were quick to claim a kill. They were umm... overconfident. So its entirely plausible, that where Submarine Bubble targets may not have fooled Allied sonar operaters as much, its entirely likely they would have fooled Japanese sonar operators by a fair amount.

Bubblehead1980 · 01-28-10, 05:05 PM

you did well, i like it, they work but are not perfect ive had some escorts who are only fooled for a short time, again good job

Armistead · 01-28-10, 05:16 PM

A must have in Formosa. What's strange is say I have six type A's, if five stay with the decoys, always one will come a searching, pinging and dropping good runs. You hear them speed up, so that means they have contact. Usually if one gets contact, the others in a range will come join, but they don't, they stay with the decoys overall.

I also like to drop them and dive. Not sure how good it works, but in Formosa, say 200 ft of water, if they ping me, I'll drop one and drop down some. If they get ready to make a pass, I'll hit dive and drop another.

Be interesting to know how they guage what depth you are. Even if I have to come up some, I like to radically change depth as they drop, cause most will blow above me. Got to be a point in the game programming that sensors register what depth you're at, if you know it, that would be the time to go deep. I assume it's when they speed up..

Sometimes if I'm deeper, say 400 ft of water and I'm near the bottom, I do the reverse. When they speed up I hit flank and rise and they usually fall under. Sometimes I'll blow the tanks to get a faster rise, lol

works good if it makes sense.

Bubblehead1980 · 01-28-10, 05:55 PM

Well I go deep, drop couple decoys on way down at diff depths and stay deep, rather have charges exploding above me, can do more damage when they explode below the sub.

Armistead · 01-28-10, 10:24 PM

Explain better. Let's say medium depths around 300. You're already deep as you can go and as one starts a run, if he has me as a good contact the charges will drop to 300 ft, so when he speeds up, I assume his depth is figured and locked in to drop to 300 ft. So after he speeds up, I'll head for about 200 ft fast as I can. Usually only do this in calm water and it seems to work well. Course depending on ship, some drop many charges some set to go off at different depths...so regardless I'll stay deeper and flank forward or reverse to miss them. I've actually had better luck staying at one knot in shallow water and hitting flank reverse when they speed up, mostly with the TYPE AD's, cause they double shoot.

What I'm trying to figure out is at what moment do they register your depth for the attack, just not sure.

sergei · 01-29-10, 03:48 AM

That does seem to be how the game is coded. When they get a good fix on you, rather than setting a pattern at varying depths, all the charges will be set to go off at your depth.
So ordering a depth change at the last moment is a good tactic.
I'm sure I read in a thread ages ago that Ducimus looked into this and found that it could not be changed. It's hardwired into the game.

Bubblehead1980 · 01-29-10, 05:20 PM

changing depths is good, i just do not go shallow because A less time for charges to fall, thus less time for you to get out of the way and also, when deep its more difficult for them to detect you passive sonar and active sonar, esp if below thermal layer.

In shallows sometimes there is no where to go but up but in long run it seems it just helps them, sure they might have charges set deeper and miss you that time, but then they have a fix on you and lets face it, subs are not rockets, they dont rise or fall rapidly.

Unfortunately the devs didnt take the time to make the way charges are set more realistic, took short cuts it seems.Lets say they are pinging you and you are at 250 feet, the keep pinging until just about ready to accelerate for the drop, then they stop, your depth as read by their sonar is set at 250.Now I have learned from watching them drop that they will set most charges for 250 feet, but some will prob be set for 240 and 260 or 270, all close to 250 feet, i've been killed by this trying to do sudden depth changes, watched as most charges exploded at my depth and others were above and below.Most charges will go off at the target depth though.
That is why its nice to have decoys, they lock on to them and leave you alone.

TMO with RSRD, the escorts are proving rather tough.Maybe i'm just out of practiced, havent had time to play much lately.Although when the Type D or C drop 16 charges in one run between the Y guns and the stern racks, somethings bound to get you.

Armistead · 01-29-10, 09:18 PM

Head to Formosa late 44 and early 45. I've never had so much fun trying to figure out how to get an attack off. You'll eventually get that message that they're funning the coastline and they just about do. You do have a few places that you can get deeper water..like 200 ft at the most.

What's funny is they look like they're headed for deeper water, only to zag back into the shallows.

Get 6-12 Type AB's on you...bout impossible to live. Worse, I had 5 Type AB's and 2 Matsu's on me..I still think the Matsu is the meanest ship with double roll off, 2 Y guns and 4 K guns. The way the guns are set, they drop a mean pattern. Maybe they have higher skilled crews, cause they've killed me in 700ft of water. Glad I don't see em much.

Each time I go out to Formosa I attack at least two convoys, then out of torps. Have a large one I put on pause last night, 48 ship TF, but a mixture of merchants, CA's, DD's.

Ducimus · 01-29-10, 10:21 PM

I'll TRY and explain how this works as simply as i can.

Active sonar is like a flashlight beam in a dark room. Your either in the beam, (and presenting a favorable aspect for X amount of time), or your not. The beam has a max range, a width, and a height. The height of the beam is expressed in Min elevation and max elevation.

Now, take a look at this protractor:

For our purposes, i want you to imagine this protractor flipped on its side. So the 0 degree mark is straight up and down, and the 90 degree mark is parrell with the oceans surface.

Follow me so far? Now, put a pencil or pen, and point at the letter Y in watermarked "visualdictionary.com" on the protractor pic. Remember, the 90 degree mark is the oceans surface. Now, take a piece of paper, and draw a line from the little hole in the protractor for a pencil, to the 100 degree mark on a right angle. What you have there is an illustration of the stock sonar beam. From 90 degrees to 100 degrees is what the beam is. Note, that the Y is not in the beam. Also note that the beam won't pick you up close. Only far away, and at shallow depths.

Now, take that paper, and move it to a 115 degree right angle. The Y is in the beam now isn't it? Also note that the beam is capable of detecting at greater depths at longer range, and because of the downward angle, can keep contact a shallower depths for much longer then 100 degrees.

115 degrees is what i have set for the AI in TMO. This effects how accurate they are horizontally, and how deep they can "see".

Now once the AI has selected a depth to unload at, it is Tits on every time. It may not have your horizontal position correct, but it will have your verticle position (depth), tits on. What varies is depth percision on the depth charges.

depth percision, sets area at which DC will randomly explode when set at a given depth by the AI. For example, with a depth percision of 20(metric), if the AI sets the DC to explode at 160feet, then the DC could randomly explode anywhere between 140 feet and 180 feet. Default game setting is a depth percision of FIVE. I think i have this set for 18 if i remember correctly.

Armistead · 01-29-10, 11:59 PM

I like your uber AI post somewhere, tricks I think....

I'm getting pretty good at getting past the DD's. Usually coming in from a longer distance and letting that first DD pass. When I get out of it's sonar cone, I'll speed up. My goal is to get the shot off before the flank DD picks me up if at all.. Still, my shots take place at an average of 1500 yards.

I've really practiced. I'll put my cam on the nearest DE and do things with my sub. You can clearly see when you make a mistake. Using the map, I'll mark distances when he pings me. Games fairly amazing the second you make a mistake, they sense you.

01-28-10, 02:23 PM	#1
Bubblehead1980 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida USA Posts: 7,104 Downloads: 605 Uploads: 44	1945 patrol....decoys in TMO RSRD Playing a career in Feb 1945 with a Tench class, first patrol in Yellow Sea.Afer 6 days in area with nothing, boom, convoy with one large freighter, one small and 3 escorts...PB 103, etorufu escort and type AB coastal defense ship, all with radar so no night surface but with ST radar(periscope radar) on the night scope and the color lense, easier to do scope shots at night so went for it. Attacked and sank the large freighter with four Mark 18's, two hit the small but one was a dud so it didnt sink.After 6 hours of evasion with about 200 feet of water to hide in,escaped, decoys helped, only one charged came real close, shook the hell out of my boat.Was middle of day by this point. After a long end around, was ahead at dusk when spotted 4 fishing vessels, guessed i had time for some gun action, so went for battle surface, quickly sank the fishing boats.Night time, moved in on convoy for scope shot with stern tubes.At 2100 yards, was ready to fire when the outside escort started pinging me, adjusted target speed hoping theyd still hit and fired, dropped scope, went ahead flank and headed for the bottom.Fortunately was by now nearly to the Tsushima Strait, had 470 feet under me.At 100 feet, 150 feet and 200 feet I dropped decoys, then went to 1 knot and leveled off at 350 feet . I could hear the escort roaring in and then counted many splashes, then many loud explosions but could tell they were all above me, decoys worked again.They pounded on the decoys in ideal sonar conditions, flat calm seas, while I snaked away.The two fish missed the target, ah well, do it again. Now, in real life were decoys that effective? I dont mind them being perfect in the game, just curious.Ive launched them and had them only distract the escorts for small amount of time, but they are great.

01-28-10, 05:05 PM	#3
Bubblehead1980 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida USA Posts: 7,104 Downloads: 605 Uploads: 44	you did well, i like it, they work but are not perfect ive had some escorts who are only fooled for a short time, again good job Last edited by Bubblehead1980; 01-28-10 at 05:31 PM.

01-28-10, 05:16 PM	#4
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	A must have in Formosa. What's strange is say I have six type A's, if five stay with the decoys, always one will come a searching, pinging and dropping good runs. You hear them speed up, so that means they have contact. Usually if one gets contact, the others in a range will come join, but they don't, they stay with the decoys overall. I also like to drop them and dive. Not sure how good it works, but in Formosa, say 200 ft of water, if they ping me, I'll drop one and drop down some. If they get ready to make a pass, I'll hit dive and drop another. Be interesting to know how they guage what depth you are. Even if I have to come up some, I like to radically change depth as they drop, cause most will blow above me. Got to be a point in the game programming that sensors register what depth you're at, if you know it, that would be the time to go deep. I assume it's when they speed up.. Sometimes if I'm deeper, say 400 ft of water and I'm near the bottom, I do the reverse. When they speed up I hit flank and rise and they usually fall under. Sometimes I'll blow the tanks to get a faster rise, lol works good if it makes sense. Last edited by Armistead; 01-28-10 at 05:31 PM.

01-28-10, 05:55 PM	#5
Bubblehead1980 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida USA Posts: 7,104 Downloads: 605 Uploads: 44	Well I go deep, drop couple decoys on way down at diff depths and stay deep, rather have charges exploding above me, can do more damage when they explode below the sub.

01-28-10, 10:24 PM	#6
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Explain better. Let's say medium depths around 300. You're already deep as you can go and as one starts a run, if he has me as a good contact the charges will drop to 300 ft, so when he speeds up, I assume his depth is figured and locked in to drop to 300 ft. So after he speeds up, I'll head for about 200 ft fast as I can. Usually only do this in calm water and it seems to work well. Course depending on ship, some drop many charges some set to go off at different depths...so regardless I'll stay deeper and flank forward or reverse to miss them. I've actually had better luck staying at one knot in shallow water and hitting flank reverse when they speed up, mostly with the TYPE AD's, cause they double shoot. What I'm trying to figure out is at what moment do they register your depth for the attack, just not sure.

01-29-10, 03:48 AM	#7
sergei Sea Lord Join Date: May 2008 Location: London UK Posts: 1,788 Downloads: 405 Uploads: 29	That does seem to be how the game is coded. When they get a good fix on you, rather than setting a pattern at varying depths, all the charges will be set to go off at your depth. So ordering a depth change at the last moment is a good tactic. I'm sure I read in a thread ages ago that Ducimus looked into this and found that it could not be changed. It's hardwired into the game.

01-29-10, 05:20 PM	#8
Bubblehead1980 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Florida USA Posts: 7,104 Downloads: 605 Uploads: 44	changing depths is good, i just do not go shallow because A less time for charges to fall, thus less time for you to get out of the way and also, when deep its more difficult for them to detect you passive sonar and active sonar, esp if below thermal layer. In shallows sometimes there is no where to go but up but in long run it seems it just helps them, sure they might have charges set deeper and miss you that time, but then they have a fix on you and lets face it, subs are not rockets, they dont rise or fall rapidly. Unfortunately the devs didnt take the time to make the way charges are set more realistic, took short cuts it seems.Lets say they are pinging you and you are at 250 feet, the keep pinging until just about ready to accelerate for the drop, then they stop, your depth as read by their sonar is set at 250.Now I have learned from watching them drop that they will set most charges for 250 feet, but some will prob be set for 240 and 260 or 270, all close to 250 feet, i've been killed by this trying to do sudden depth changes, watched as most charges exploded at my depth and others were above and below.Most charges will go off at the target depth though. That is why its nice to have decoys, they lock on to them and leave you alone. TMO with RSRD, the escorts are proving rather tough.Maybe i'm just out of practiced, havent had time to play much lately.Although when the Type D or C drop 16 charges in one run between the Y guns and the stern racks, somethings bound to get you.

01-29-10, 09:18 PM	#9
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	Head to Formosa late 44 and early 45. I've never had so much fun trying to figure out how to get an attack off. You'll eventually get that message that they're funning the coastline and they just about do. You do have a few places that you can get deeper water..like 200 ft at the most. What's funny is they look like they're headed for deeper water, only to zag back into the shallows. Get 6-12 Type AB's on you...bout impossible to live. Worse, I had 5 Type AB's and 2 Matsu's on me..I still think the Matsu is the meanest ship with double roll off, 2 Y guns and 4 K guns. The way the guns are set, they drop a mean pattern. Maybe they have higher skilled crews, cause they've killed me in 700ft of water. Glad I don't see em much. Each time I go out to Formosa I attack at least two convoys, then out of torps. Have a large one I put on pause last night, 48 ship TF, but a mixture of merchants, CA's, DD's.

01-29-10, 10:21 PM	#10
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	I'll TRY and explain how this works as simply as i can. Active sonar is like a flashlight beam in a dark room. Your either in the beam, (and presenting a favorable aspect for X amount of time), or your not. The beam has a max range, a width, and a height. The height of the beam is expressed in Min elevation and max elevation. Now, take a look at this protractor: For our purposes, i want you to imagine this protractor flipped on its side. So the 0 degree mark is straight up and down, and the 90 degree mark is parrell with the oceans surface. Follow me so far? Now, put a pencil or pen, and point at the letter Y in watermarked "visualdictionary.com" on the protractor pic. Remember, the 90 degree mark is the oceans surface. Now, take a piece of paper, and draw a line from the little hole in the protractor for a pencil, to the 100 degree mark on a right angle. What you have there is an illustration of the stock sonar beam. From 90 degrees to 100 degrees is what the beam is. Note, that the Y is not in the beam. Also note that the beam won't pick you up close. Only far away, and at shallow depths. Now, take that paper, and move it to a 115 degree right angle. The Y is in the beam now isn't it? Also note that the beam is capable of detecting at greater depths at longer range, and because of the downward angle, can keep contact a shallower depths for much longer then 100 degrees. 115 degrees is what i have set for the AI in TMO. This effects how accurate they are horizontally, and how deep they can "see". Now once the AI has selected a depth to unload at, it is Tits on every time. It may not have your horizontal position correct, but it will have your verticle position (depth), tits on. What varies is depth percision on the depth charges. depth percision, sets area at which DC will randomly explode when set at a given depth by the AI. For example, with a depth percision of 20(metric), if the AI sets the DC to explode at 160feet, then the DC could randomly explode anywhere between 140 feet and 180 feet. Default game setting is a depth percision of FIVE. I think i have this set for 18 if i remember correctly.

01-29-10, 11:59 PM	#11
Armistead Rear Admiral Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: on the Dan Posts: 10,880 Downloads: 364 Uploads: 0	I like your uber AI post somewhere, tricks I think.... I'm getting pretty good at getting past the DD's. Usually coming in from a longer distance and letting that first DD pass. When I get out of it's sonar cone, I'll speed up. My goal is to get the shot off before the flank DD picks me up if at all.. Still, my shots take place at an average of 1500 yards. I've really practiced. I'll put my cam on the nearest DE and do things with my sub. You can clearly see when you make a mistake. Using the map, I'll mark distances when he pings me. Games fairly amazing the second you make a mistake, they sense you.