A new and possible more just pay system is in the working

Respenus · 12-14-09, 04:40 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8410489.stm

This just might become a new turning point in Capitalism. Looking at everything and not just one specific detail about someone's work. The amount of zeros that come after each balance sheet don't mean that society proper has function. The article said that this doesn't mean that salaries should rise. I say they should be representative of how much work and good you for your society. Together with certain actions taken by European governments, the effect of which (if any) will be seen in the future, this might just be the end of the City of London and other similar financial zones of power.

12-14-09, 05:14 AM

Good points but the BBC often quotes studies that don't really lead to anything. The UK is a pretty archaic society where class distinctions are very much alive, I don't think this study will change anything. Especially with a right-winger like Brown representing the labour and the tories clamoring for more power.

I'd say it's more likely that things will just get worse and bankers etc. will continue to rob more for every pound they destroy.

Respenus · 12-14-09, 06:00 AM

I agree, but you must look at the larger picture. Data from said study can be extrapolated for other states or similar studies can be done in other states. Once the larger picture is seen, more pressure will be put on those jobs in society which destroy, rather than create new value.

Letum · 12-14-09, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Especially with a right-winger like Brown representing the labour and the tories clamoring for more power.

You never know. There might be a hung parliament next election.

I can only hope.

12-14-09, 06:17 AM

Quote:

You never know. There might be a hung parliament next election

Would you like to buy some rope?

Skybird · 12-14-09, 06:58 AM

Interesting, I always hoped that somewehre some thought would be spend on these things. It points at the same direction like my own thinking on the matter.

In a past job during university, I once had a (friendly) argument with my boss who tried to justify the excessive differences in loans between people by pointing at the higher importance of those being at the top. I asked him how he would do a day's work in his office if there would be no toilet clean enough so that he would dare to use it, and if a stuck toilet obviously interferes with his daily work routine and distracting him more and more over the hours, a toilet cleaner obviously cannot be that unimportant at all just becasue his educational status is lower (or not, one of the workers in that hall had a doctor in mathematics, another guy had a degree in philosophy). He did not really have a reply to that.

Even when taking longer, better education into account, I personally think that the differences in loans that excessive as we see them today, are not justified. Let there be a spread from bottom to top in the range of factors around 20, for example. Let the elite of the really important and well educated guys earn 20 times as much as the toilet cleaner. the rest of a business' profits is common property. Let foreign investiments and this almolst perverse system of money-leasing end. Let nobody have a right to enrich himself by just buying stocks of a company with which he has no busienss beyind this act, and where he does not work.

A company has other responsibilities than to enrich stockholders. It has oblligations to it's customers, these it has to weigh versus the imperative that the communal interest comes first, so not any desire by the customers for this or that item must be accepted (the usual argument for crap TV broadcasting so much crap: becasue oublic taste "demands" it). A company must be managed that it does no sustaining harm to the environment, that it can compensate the dmage it does, that it's economical status is health, and that the workers can make a living by their daily work, and their jobs are safe. compared to that the profit interests of foreign "investors" are meaningless and just a symptom of this perverse economic system we have.

Just imagine what you could do with that ammount of money suddenly available to - sciences. Arts. Medical research. Adressing hunger, diseases, envrionmental issues. Those billions and billions that now have ended as private bonusses for a few perpetrators doing incredible ammonts of harm to the communal interest - being available for being used for the communal and global interest instead the interest of a few greedy egoists!

I am neither a socialist nor a communist: let there be reward for those showing better performance and more engagement, let there be reward for creativity and accepting more responsibility. BUT KEEP IT IN RELATION. Leaving the regulation of bonusses and loans to free market only, just helps to accumulate more and more power in few and fewer hands that grab the more for themselves the more powerful they have become, leaving the others with less and lesser. The split between rich and poor in the Wetsern nations, is widening, everywhere, the rich become richer and fewer, the poor become more and poorer. Also, later generation do not have the same chances at the starting line the now-monopolists once had themselves. Free market always leads to it's distortion by the few trying to establish their interest monopoles, which always translates into power and money for themselves - and the prevention of free market at the cost of the many.

So keep loans and rewards in relation to what the earner actually deserves by his obligatory deeds and and voluntary engagement and function and performance and importance. Hold him responsible for where he fails (bankers and stock brokers now must want to kill me, I know). Many bankers act like they do only because they know that they will not be held repsnisble for their deeds and will not need to compensate with their private wealth - they are wasting the money of others, not their own. And shoot those damn lobbyists manipulating politics and neutralising the power of the (voting) people that way, working around the electorial mandate that way. Politics and economy must stay independant from each other. no person shall have a seat in parliament and a seat in a board of directors at the same tim - this is the classic example of a conflict of interests, isn't it. The state on behalf of the communal higher interest should regulate as little as possible, but as much as needed to keep selfishness of economic actors within limits where their damage to the communal interest remains to be relatively low, the state is both the protection shield of the community against economical greed of the few, and the authoriuty defining the general set of rules that set the frame for economic developement taking place. There shall not be a total regulation by the state, nor shall there be a anarchistic, "free" market regulating itself, since thta means monopolism. The rule of thumb is: the interest of the many ranks higher than the interest of the few, or the one. there may be ethical tjhought experiments possible poutting this rule into question under specilaised circumstances, but a state must base on rules that are valid for the general majority of cases and issues, the majority should not depend on rules that got defined by - the exceptions from the rules. exceptions should be possible, but they should not be the general rule.

The interest of the many overules the interest of the few - this of course cannot be an excuse for anarchic absence of justice and laws protecting basic rights of the few as well, thta would be totalitarianism. The decisive word here is "basic rights".

12-14-09, 07:49 AM

Its funny though isn't it, accountants stop people giving money to the government....well what on earth did they think people have accountants for.

Quote:

accountants damage the country by devising schemes to cut the amount of money available to the government

Accountants allow people to exercise their rights by understanding the schemes the government devises which aim to rob the people of more than they should be paying.

nikimcbee · 12-15-09, 04:52 PM

Quote:

They reportedly destroy £7 of value for every £1 they earn.

Yeah, wait until the interest rates go up.
What a dumb study. If their looking for drags on society, how about they do a study on lawyers and gov't employees.

I have no sympathy for the gov't class.

12-14-09, 04:40 AM	#1
Respenus Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,169 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	A new and possible more just pay system is in the working http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8410489.stm This just might become a new turning point in Capitalism. Looking at everything and not just one specific detail about someone's work. The amount of zeros that come after each balance sheet don't mean that society proper has function. The article said that this doesn't mean that salaries should rise. I say they should be representative of how much work and good you for your society. Together with certain actions taken by European governments, the effect of which (if any) will be seen in the future, this might just be the end of the City of London and other similar financial zones of power. __________________

12-14-09, 06:00 AM	#3
Respenus Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,169 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I agree, but you must look at the larger picture. Data from said study can be extrapolated for other states or similar studies can be done in other states. Once the larger picture is seen, more pressure will be put on those jobs in society which destroy, rather than create new value. __________________

12-14-09, 06:58 AM	#6
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,602 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Interesting, I always hoped that somewehre some thought would be spend on these things. It points at the same direction like my own thinking on the matter. In a past job during university, I once had a (friendly) argument with my boss who tried to justify the excessive differences in loans between people by pointing at the higher importance of those being at the top. I asked him how he would do a day's work in his office if there would be no toilet clean enough so that he would dare to use it, and if a stuck toilet obviously interferes with his daily work routine and distracting him more and more over the hours, a toilet cleaner obviously cannot be that unimportant at all just becasue his educational status is lower (or not, one of the workers in that hall had a doctor in mathematics, another guy had a degree in philosophy). He did not really have a reply to that. Even when taking longer, better education into account, I personally think that the differences in loans that excessive as we see them today, are not justified. Let there be a spread from bottom to top in the range of factors around 20, for example. Let the elite of the really important and well educated guys earn 20 times as much as the toilet cleaner. the rest of a business' profits is common property. Let foreign investiments and this almolst perverse system of money-leasing end. Let nobody have a right to enrich himself by just buying stocks of a company with which he has no busienss beyind this act, and where he does not work. A company has other responsibilities than to enrich stockholders. It has oblligations to it's customers, these it has to weigh versus the imperative that the communal interest comes first, so not any desire by the customers for this or that item must be accepted (the usual argument for crap TV broadcasting so much crap: becasue oublic taste "demands" it). A company must be managed that it does no sustaining harm to the environment, that it can compensate the dmage it does, that it's economical status is health, and that the workers can make a living by their daily work, and their jobs are safe. compared to that the profit interests of foreign "investors" are meaningless and just a symptom of this perverse economic system we have. Just imagine what you could do with that ammount of money suddenly available to - sciences. Arts. Medical research. Adressing hunger, diseases, envrionmental issues. Those billions and billions that now have ended as private bonusses for a few perpetrators doing incredible ammonts of harm to the communal interest - being available for being used for the communal and global interest instead the interest of a few greedy egoists! I am neither a socialist nor a communist: let there be reward for those showing better performance and more engagement, let there be reward for creativity and accepting more responsibility. BUT KEEP IT IN RELATION. Leaving the regulation of bonusses and loans to free market only, just helps to accumulate more and more power in few and fewer hands that grab the more for themselves the more powerful they have become, leaving the others with less and lesser. The split between rich and poor in the Wetsern nations, is widening, everywhere, the rich become richer and fewer, the poor become more and poorer. Also, later generation do not have the same chances at the starting line the now-monopolists once had themselves. Free market always leads to it's distortion by the few trying to establish their interest monopoles, which always translates into power and money for themselves - and the prevention of free market at the cost of the many. So keep loans and rewards in relation to what the earner actually deserves by his obligatory deeds and and voluntary engagement and function and performance and importance. Hold him responsible for where he fails (bankers and stock brokers now must want to kill me, I know). Many bankers act like they do only because they know that they will not be held repsnisble for their deeds and will not need to compensate with their private wealth - they are wasting the money of others, not their own. And shoot those damn lobbyists manipulating politics and neutralising the power of the (voting) people that way, working around the electorial mandate that way. Politics and economy must stay independant from each other. no person shall have a seat in parliament and a seat in a board of directors at the same tim - this is the classic example of a conflict of interests, isn't it. The state on behalf of the communal higher interest should regulate as little as possible, but as much as needed to keep selfishness of economic actors within limits where their damage to the communal interest remains to be relatively low, the state is both the protection shield of the community against economical greed of the few, and the authoriuty defining the general set of rules that set the frame for economic developement taking place. There shall not be a total regulation by the state, nor shall there be a anarchistic, "free" market regulating itself, since thta means monopolism. The rule of thumb is: the interest of the many ranks higher than the interest of the few, or the one. there may be ethical tjhought experiments possible poutting this rule into question under specilaised circumstances, but a state must base on rules that are valid for the general majority of cases and issues, the majority should not depend on rules that got defined by - the exceptions from the rules. exceptions should be possible, but they should not be the general rule. The interest of the many overules the interest of the few - this of course cannot be an excuse for anarchic absence of justice and laws protecting basic rights of the few as well, thta would be totalitarianism. The decisive word here is "basic rights". __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 12-14-09 at 07:19 AM.

12-14-09, 05:14 AM	#2
OneToughHerring Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Good points but the BBC often quotes studies that don't really lead to anything. The UK is a pretty archaic society where class distinctions are very much alive, I don't think this study will change anything. Especially with a right-winger like Brown representing the labour and the tories clamoring for more power. I'd say it's more likely that things will just get worse and bankers etc. will continue to rob more for every pound they destroy.