Captain does and doesn't

[Rosencrantz]

It's quite often stated in the forum what CO does and doesn't, and quite often those statements seems to be a bit, how I would say it, odd maybe. Like "commanding officer doesn't plot target's movement", or "it's not CO's business to take care of dicipline", or "CO is not interested in how does the food taste in the wardroom". Really? In the real life, I think, every CO is very much interested or involved in about everything what comes to the ship. What actions should be simulated in the game is, however, whole different subject.

Just wanted to take this "on board". I think we should try to be more precise and make clear difference when we are talking about real life skippers and when we are talking about sub sims. Just that we wouldn't be spreading out false information.


Greetings,
-RC-

[THE_MASK]

Dont forget though , the devs said we could play as other officers as well .

[Platapus]

I think the CO is aware and does care because ultimately he is responsible. However, despite the responsibility, he delegates authority to handle these issues.

A CO with a good crew does not have to "do" many of these things as he has officers (Commissioned and Non-Commissioned) to "do" these things.

Maybe that can be modeled in the game. If you start out with a green crew they come to you (CO) with every piddling problem. As your crew matures, issues are handled further down the chain.

[ETR3(SS)]

I say the devs make a patrol on a submarine to see the Chain of Command up close. Come to think of it, I'd like to send a lot of people on a patrol so they can see what it's really like.

[totodog]

Originally Posted by sober

Dont forget though , the devs said we could play as other officers as well .

Do you have a source for this?

[THE_MASK]

Originally Posted by totodog

Do you have a source for this?

Its on the forum somewhere .

[JScones]

Being accountable and being responsible are two different things.

For example, I am accountable for staff at work, yet I have subordinates who are responsible for managing their day-to-day activities. My subordinate team leaders are directly responsible for their team's performance, leaving me to develop the forward plan and strategies (for which I am responsible and my superior is accountable). And if I notice something wrong in one of my teams, then I alert the appropriate team leader to fix it (unless it's time critical).

Same in a U-boat; the Kaleun is accountable for his boat and meeting the objective of sinking enemy ships in-line with his boss's (Onkel Karl) directives. How he does that with his available resources is then up to him to manage. He has subordinate ranks to micromanage the day-to-day activities to ensure smooth running. He generally wants "health of the boat" updates, not to be down in the galley counting eggs, tapping pistons and so on. Otherwise, why bother with rank structures or positions (such as LI, navigator, watch officer, discipline WO, storesman, cook etc) at all?

Now having said this, of course there were occasions when the Kaleun got involved in discipline, food rationing, or other nuts and bolts. That's what line management implies. It's just that they're not the first in-line to deal with every trivial issue that arises.

And this is where there's no black and white answer to the OP's question. The further one goes up the line of command, the more their personality affects the execution of their duties. This includes how much control they want over their subordinates and to what level they want to micro or macro manage. Just compare the leadership styles of Wolfgang Lüth to Peter Zschech to see this diversity in action. For every "I want to know everything" leader there's a "don't bore me with the details" leader. Neither approach is necessarily right or wrong, as other factors make up the effectiveness of the leader.

Anyway, there's many books on the subject of U-boat crew responsibilities, and frankly the only information I've seen posted here that I think is wrong comes from those who think that the Kaleun does everything himself. Now if the game allows that, then fine; the misinformed will be blissfully happy. But as long as the game also allows the Kaleun to be the Kaleun, I'll be happy. Then everyone wins.

[JScones]

Originally Posted by sober

Its on the forum somewhere .

When you find it, pls post a link as I (and seemingly others) must have missed that post.

The closest I could find was from the Q&A thread over at Ubi:

Will this be the same in SHV as in SHIV that the player can replace the sailor or officer of his job and do it himself? (Or are we restricted to giving them commands only?)

The player can jump in most of the key positions on the ship – firing guns, periscope, hydrophone, navigation map. More so, each of these stations is realistically modeled, and, combined with the FPS view, the immersion should be total. Additionally, we’re aiming to make the player work SIDE BY SIDE with his crew – be it on the periscope, when identifying a ship, or on the map, when looking for enemy convoys.

which is no different to SH3 and SH4. In fact, unless I am misunderstanding, the "side by side" concept will reinforce your role as Kaleun by having you with the responsble crewman, not the responsible crewman. But that's how I read it, and from one simple sentence I may be way off.

[JScones]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I think the CO is aware and does care because ultimately he is responsible. However, despite the responsibility, he delegates authority to handle these issues.

A CO with a good crew does not have to "do" many of these things as he has officers (Commissioned and Non-Commissioned) to "do" these things.

Maybe that can be modeled in the game. If you start out with a green crew they come to you (CO) with every piddling problem. As your crew matures, issues are handled further down the chain.

Actually not a bad idea, and one that is reflective of real life. For example, at one point I had 120 staff reporting through 7 team leaders reporting to me. With the more experienced team leaders, a quick daily morning chat was all I needed to know that everything was under control. With the less experienced team leaders, I had to spend time going through their issues, providing advice, assistance, mentoring and so on--exactly as I should I hasten to add--but still taking me away from my main duties. Over time they improved and my "hands on" involvement with their teams decreased.

[karamazovnew]

Originally Posted by ETR3(SS)

I say the devs make a patrol on a submarine to see the Chain of Command up close. Come to think of it, I'd like to send a lot of people on a patrol so they can see what it's really like.

Send me, send me .

The CO is not born CO. He's born poop cleaner and works his way up. By the time he becomes CO, he know EVERYTHING on his ship, metal and flesh alike. Of course he delegates, but we're not talking about a half drunk beer bellied "ahoy" captain that delegates his dog to bring him another bottle. We're talking about young Kaleuns in the services of the Third Reich here. Maybe someone can provide a list of responsabilities of the Kapitänleutnant.

[Lord Justice]

Originally Posted by Rosencrantz

It's quite often stated in the forum what CO does and doesn't, and quite often those statements seems to be a bit, how I would say it, odd maybe. Like "commanding officer doesn't plot target's movement", or "it's not CO's business to take care of dicipline", or "CO is not interested in how does the food taste in the wardroom". Really? In the real life, I think, every CO is very much interested or involved in about everything what comes to the ship


Greetings,
-RC-

YES, may we all take heed to the fact going back to 1939 living space was very crammed inside u boats, and more so with full compliment of personel, weapons, supplies , etc. so in comparison with todays larger vessels albeit with more crew i dont belive its fair to say or presume the CO didnt interact with crew much as one sometimes thinks. more so during war, brothers in arms. With much less perks also as todays submariner, " shift has finished think i go for shower and watch a movie then perhaps read up for my next exam". Yes great stuff from the quote above, to many belive the capt sat on a white cloud far above snubbing his nose at mundane events. the great divide, back then not a chance!!!

[Rosencrantz]

Yep...

First thing I would like say is that I was only calling after precision and consideration when we are talking about CO's actions in real life. One good reason to be as precise as possible could be example the fact that there's - I think - many youngsters also learning about the military. People who have never been in the military has often odd thoughts about what it is like to be in the ranks. Or at least this is something I have learned myself, you know.

However, I think JScones gave a good writing about the subject. Only thing which I don't fully agree with you, JScones, is that wrong information comes usually only from people thinking CO does everything by himself.

In order to get the topic to move on, I would like to ask, what we actually need to simulate crew interaction or command problems? My suggestion is that morale and health are actually only things we need. So, only thing I miss is actually morale/health which are saved after the patrol. Then, while in port, morale of some individuals should go either up or down, to certain degree. Somehow it's funny both in 3 and 4 that after few days in port you'll get 100 % fit crew again...


Greetings,
-RC-

[JScones]

Originally Posted by Rosencrantz

So, only thing I miss is actually morale/health which are saved after the patrol. Then, while in port, morale of some individuals should go either up or down, to certain degree. Somehow it's funny both in 3 and 4 that after few days in port you'll get 100 % fit crew again...

Agreed. IMHO this is a big failing in SH3. Woundings at sea and battle fatigue are all but forgotten by SH3 (and SH4?) as soon as the boat docks. No convalescence period, not even a wound badge.

http://uboat.net/men/men_lost.htm shows a nice list of mortalities and (more serious) woundings at sea by year. From a quick squiz I'd certainly be surprised if most of those wounded at sea felt 100% when the boat docked. As an aside I noted with interest the proportionately high number of "man overboard" losses (as opposed to watching them stick like glue to your deck in SH3 when large waves break)...

But all this raises another complexity - how many wounded or ill crew were repatriated through milk cows?

Anyway, this discussion seems to be taking your thread away from what you originally intended.

[Sailor Steve]

A good thread, and already some good answers. The reality is that the CO has a lot to worry about, and the command structure is set up to take that burden off his shoulders where possible.

When the captain wants to change course in a combat situation, he gives the order and the helmsman obeys. When he wants to go deeper, he orders the depth, but he doesn't tell the planesmen exactly what dive angle to take. That is the job of his department head, in this case the LI on the uboat. The captain never actually mans the wheel or the planes. He will order the engine settings he wants and the exact speed, including separate engine orders when maneuvering in harbor; but he doesn't actually man the engines, of course.

Originally Posted by Rosencrantz

..."commanding officer doesn't plot target's movement"...

This is one of the tough parts of the game. Some SH3 and SH4 players have complained about the difficulty of manual targetting. I'm not very good at it either. But the answer in SH3 is to use the 'Weapons Officer Assistance', and several people have said that using WOA is more realistic than doing it all yourself. The only problem there is that the captain does indeed focus the periscope, and his assistant reads and records the bearing and range. Either of them could draw the lines on the chart, but that job is usually assigned to a third party, with the senior officers double-checking.

or "it's not CO's business to take care of dicipline"...

Discipline is usually department-specific. The petty officer is the equivalent of a sergeant in the army, and part of his job is to keep his fellows in line. He answers to the Chief Petty Officer, who is charge of the men in his division, or department. The actual department head is a junior officer, and even he doesn't usually concern himself with discipline, but with the running of his department. It is his job to make sure that department runs smoothly, so problems between sailors could be brought to his attention, but he would be more likely to talk them through it than threaten punishment. The XO/1WO was the ultimate department head, and his judgement was final in the day-to-day running of the boat. He was the one who worked with department heads to make sure they got what they needed to do the job, and he was the one who made sure that they provided what the captain needed to do his job. That means that the XO was also in charge of provisioning the boat and scheduling the watch changes, and the captain routinely asked him how things were going.

...or "CO is not interested in how does the food taste in the wardroom". Really? In the real life, I think, every CO is very much interested or involved in about everything what comes to the ship. What actions should be simulated in the game is, however, whole different subject.

I'm sure the captain cares what his food tastes like, and he might actually say something to the cook, or mention it to the XO, if he's not happy. If he is happy he might compliment the cook of course, since it's good for morale and also a guarantee that the cook will try to keep pleasing his captain. On the other hand, it's the XO's job to supervise the loading of supplies. He'll report that the boat is provisioned, and give details if the captain asks for them. He might also let the captain know if he managed to snag any special items, but other than that the CO only cares that the job is done and his boat is ready for sea.

Bottom line: the captain can of course do or say anything he wants. Some did and some didn't get into the nitty-gritty, but the structure is set up so he doesn't have to worry about the details. I can see the desire for the XO to keep his boss informed about the food situation, just as the LI keeps him aprised of the fuel remaining. On the other hand, I don't recall reading any stories of u-boats terminating a patrol because of food shortages.

[FIREWALL]

Read a few of the books that have been posted here.

It will answer many questions.