About XXI in RL.

Lt.Fillipidis · 07-25-09, 06:25 AM

Isnt it a bit overrated?
Some people say that the XXI boat would change the tide of war if they were commisioned a couple of years earlier.
Considering though their large size, the advanced sonars, the hedgehog availability and the increased air movement maked me doubt about them...

BulSoldier · 07-25-09, 07:02 AM

If it was intruduced around 41 it still wont change the end result, but it certanly would have added 1-2 years.After all this sub was much more capable than anything in exsistance(if they were built in large enough quantities)
This is howeever pure speculation.The botom line is that it was much more efficient weapon than VII or IX.So there is no telling what would have happen if that was the reality.

ddiplock · 07-25-09, 07:10 AM

Erich Topp in an interview about the type XXI states that in his experience, the type XXI would NOT have made that much of a difference. Yeah the amount of tonnage sunk might have increased, but the problem with the Type XXI was that it was designed to operate solely underwater more than on the surface. And doctrine for the type XXI apparently, according to Topp, who did command such a boat, that shortly after leaving port, the boat was to submerge, and then remain so to avoid detection. But, that may only have been a result of the heavy Allied air presence late in the war.

And Eric Topp states that this would have made forming wolfpacks against convoys difficult as when they are running submerged the subs are out of radio communication with base. The resources the Allies were able to pool against the germans in terms of ships and ASW efforts was just too much for the germans, even if they did have the type XXI earlier.

Infact, the interview with Topp is on uboat.net's website

Jimbuna · 07-25-09, 07:52 AM

Another determining factor would have been the poor quality of the craftmanship during the building process. It would have taken approx two years at least to tidy up the many minor teething problems.

Ford Prefect · 07-25-09, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddiplock

Erich Topp in an interview about the type XXI states that in his experience, the type XXI would NOT have made that much of a difference. Yeah the amount of tonnage sunk might have increased, but the problem with the Type XXI was that it was designed to operate solely underwater more than on the surface. And doctrine for the type XXI apparently, according to Topp, who did command such a boat, that shortly after leaving port, the boat was to submerge, and then remain so to avoid detection. But, that may only have been a result of the heavy Allied air presence late in the war.

And Eric Topp states that this would have made forming wolfpacks against convoys difficult as when they are running submerged the subs are out of radio communication with base. The resources the Allies were able to pool against the germans in terms of ships and ASW efforts was just too much for the germans, even if they did have the type XXI earlier.

Infact, the interview with Topp is on uboat.net's website

Being out of radio contact would have also made them harder to find since the naval codes had been broken and wolf packs could be intercepted or avoided. If there's no communication relaying positions then there's nothing to decode. Had they come in earlier or the war started later, they would have likely found a way around the lack of radio contact by using some deployable antenna or some such.

ddiplock · 07-25-09, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Being out of radio contact would have also made them harder to find since the naval codes had been broken and wolf packs could be intercepted or avoided. If there's no communication relaying positions then there's nothing to decode. Had they come in earlier or the war started later, they would have likely found a way around the lack of radio contact by using some deployable antenna or some such.

Perhaps. But Erich Topp himself states that the type XXI was very much a "lone operator". Its design allowing it to work better alone, than to co-ordinate a pack attack or work in a pack.

He himself state that the trials, of which he took part in for the type XXI, showed the boats apparent "weakness" in pack operations. Also, a deployable radio antenna would likely be detectable by the Allied radar, as the Snorkel head i've read could be detected when it was raised above the surface so I'd imagine a radio antenna would suffer the same problem, that and potentially revealing the boats location when transmitting messages.

Leandros · 07-25-09, 12:39 PM

One way the XXI could have made a difference was combined with better quality armaments. Homing torpedoes were coming of age and a dedicated effort to minimize escort numbers could well have been effective. However, all through the war the BDU was quite passive on this aspect of warfare. If not in wolf packs gathering at sea, two or three XXI's could operate togheter from patrol start under given tactical instructions. With VHF comm. and the combination of high-speed, visible-trail - and homing torpedoes - escorts could have been given a hard time if attacked in concert.

It also seems that the German leadership showed little imagination in countering the escort threat, even when new technology became available. Does anyone have sources on plannning for tactics such as above...?

Of course, this would do little to minimize the threat from the air. Except that higher surface speed and more effective, concerted AA fire could be given from several vessels cruising togheter on the surface. Submerged they could also remove themselves much farther (due to the higher submerged speed) from a detected area, both to surface undetected by aircraft and to get away from ASV's directed to an area by aircrafts.

A main factor, seen from the German side, was that together with the improved submarines the KM should finally get proper reconnaisance support from the Luftwaffe - mainly with the help of the new He 177. This was a result of Dønitz's promotion to head of KM, his improved relations with Hitler and Gøring's demise. As it turned out the Luftwaffe had just as much problems getting these into service as the KM with their XXI's.

St. Cobra · 07-26-09, 06:39 AM

So the XXI would rather be an anti-escort sub to clear a path for a pack to attack.
It seems that the only thing that could turn the tide in the uboat war were the "wunderwaffen"...

danurve · 07-30-09, 11:27 AM

If one sub could sneek into a convoy and take out a dozen or so ships at a time, who needs a wolfpack?

07-25-09, 06:25 AM	#1
Lt.Fillipidis Weps Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Veria, Greece Posts: 365 Downloads: 44 Uploads: 0	About XXI in RL. Isnt it a bit overrated? Some people say that the XXI boat would change the tide of war if they were commisioned a couple of years earlier. Considering though their large size, the advanced sonars, the hedgehog availability and the increased air movement maked me doubt about them...

07-25-09, 07:02 AM	#2
BulSoldier Samurai Navy Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Burgas/Bulgaria Posts: 550 Downloads: 40 Uploads: 0	If it was intruduced around 41 it still wont change the end result, but it certanly would have added 1-2 years.After all this sub was much more capable than anything in exsistance(if they were built in large enough quantities) This is howeever pure speculation.The botom line is that it was much more efficient weapon than VII or IX.So there is no telling what would have happen if that was the reality. __________________ By the hour !

07-25-09, 07:52 AM	#4
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,479 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Another determining factor would have been the poor quality of the craftmanship during the building process. It would have taken approx two years at least to tidy up the many minor teething problems. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

07-25-09, 12:39 PM	#7
Leandros Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 676 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	One way the XXI could have made a difference was combined with better quality armaments. Homing torpedoes were coming of age and a dedicated effort to minimize escort numbers could well have been effective. However, all through the war the BDU was quite passive on this aspect of warfare. If not in wolf packs gathering at sea, two or three XXI's could operate togheter from patrol start under given tactical instructions. With VHF comm. and the combination of high-speed, visible-trail - and homing torpedoes - escorts could have been given a hard time if attacked in concert. It also seems that the German leadership showed little imagination in countering the escort threat, even when new technology became available. Does anyone have sources on plannning for tactics such as above...? Of course, this would do little to minimize the threat from the air. Except that higher surface speed and more effective, concerted AA fire could be given from several vessels cruising togheter on the surface. Submerged they could also remove themselves much farther (due to the higher submerged speed) from a detected area, both to surface undetected by aircraft and to get away from ASV's directed to an area by aircrafts. A main factor, seen from the German side, was that together with the improved submarines the KM should finally get proper reconnaisance support from the Luftwaffe - mainly with the help of the new He 177. This was a result of Dønitz's promotion to head of KM, his improved relations with Hitler and Gøring's demise. As it turned out the Luftwaffe had just as much problems getting these into service as the KM with their XXI's.

07-30-09, 11:27 AM	#9
danurve The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 1,481 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 3	If one sub could sneek into a convoy and take out a dozen or so ships at a time, who needs a wolfpack? __________________

07-25-09, 07:10 AM	#3
ddiplock Samurai Navy Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Scotland, UK Posts: 552 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	Erich Topp in an interview about the type XXI states that in his experience, the type XXI would NOT have made that much of a difference. Yeah the amount of tonnage sunk might have increased, but the problem with the Type XXI was that it was designed to operate solely underwater more than on the surface. And doctrine for the type XXI apparently, according to Topp, who did command such a boat, that shortly after leaving port, the boat was to submerge, and then remain so to avoid detection. But, that may only have been a result of the heavy Allied air presence late in the war. And Eric Topp states that this would have made forming wolfpacks against convoys difficult as when they are running submerged the subs are out of radio communication with base. The resources the Allies were able to pool against the germans in terms of ships and ASW efforts was just too much for the germans, even if they did have the type XXI earlier. Infact, the interview with Topp is on uboat.net's website

07-26-09, 06:39 AM	#8
St. Cobra Watch Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Pearly gates Posts: 26 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	So the XXI would rather be an anti-escort sub to clear a path for a pack to attack. It seems that the only thing that could turn the tide in the uboat war were the "wunderwaffen"...