A vessel named Bessel

[cj95]

heh.

Just wondering, in real life did the resupply ship in Vigo actually provide extra torpedoes?

If so, where did they get them from?

Not exactly an easy thing to sneak through customs.


"Honestly senor, its a 20 foot long kielbasa sausage....."

[Torplexed]

When ships like the Bessel and the Max Albrecht were 'interned' they were already fully laden with supplies, fuel and torpedoes. The Spanish Franco regime probably knew they were aboard, but winked at it the same way they winked at the clandestine resupply operations in the Canary Islands.

[joegrundman]

I've pondered this question myself, since even arriving fully laden, they would run out of supplies quickly.

On the other hand, the supply ships could purchase food and fuel directly from the Spanish, with money being sent overland from France for the job, and it's possible that torpedoes were also being "allowed" to be smuggled across.

After all Franco had some debts towards Germany

[Torplexed]

The odd torpedo(s) could also have been off-loaded onto these ships by U-Boats aborting from their patrols with battle damage or mechanical problems.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

The odd torpedo(s) could also have been off-loaded onto these ships by U-Boats aborting from their patrols with battle damage or mechanical problems.

Good point. "You're coming home and have supplies left, make a little stop at Vigo..."

Also the supply ships might have been like the milch cows, only giving out a couple for the trip home (or the Gibraltar transit).

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Good point. "You're coming home and have supplies left, make a little stop at Vigo..."
Also the supply ships might have been like the milch cows, only giving out a couple for the trip home (or the Gibraltar transit).

The only thing that gives me pause about that guess is not knowing what sort of difficulties there are in hoisting an unexpended torpedo out of a sub as compared to putting it in.

From what I've read about the Max Albrecht based in El Ferrol, Spain it seems she was primarily used to top up the fuel tanks of U-Boats that were a little short on fuel coming back in from distant cross-Atlantic patrols. She may have never had much need for spare torpedoes.

I suppose it possible torpedoes could have sunk across the border. Maybe in a dismantled form given how heavy they are. Spain's position in the war was rather shady at times. General Franco lent Hitler a division of volunteer Spanish soldiers for the invasion of Russia and even allowed Italian planes to occasionally refuel at Spanish airbases. However, he refused to join the conflict directly perhaps guessing correctly that the scales would eventually tip against the Axis.

[joegrundman]

Well Spain's position was complicated. They had just had a very bitter and destructive civil war, with the axis supported nationalists defeating the republicans who had communist and democratic support. So a sizeable percentage of Spain's population, including Franco, had very close ties with the axis powers that had been their support and co-fighters.

But if Franco had then thrown in with Germany at that time, it could have reignited the civil war again when he was trying to stabilise and rebuild the country, which i expect is why the most he offered the axis was axis-leaning neutrality.

I think describing it as simply 'shady' behaviour doesn't do any favours. Shady is more like American business interests dallying with the nazis. Franco could not have won the civil war without german help - it is more impressive that he didn't join the axis altogether, and i think the western allies were extremely happy with that fact, minor assistance for the axis notwithstanding.

---------------------------------

But that i suppose is a digression.

Your point about torpedoes being offloaded is valid. In one of my books somewhere, i read one captain going out having already expended some torpedoes encountering a U-boat coming home with a full torpedo loadout (that returning captain being described as a coward)

Anyway, the outbound captain persuaded the homewardbound captain to hand over some of his torpedoes in the middle of the sea. This indicates that it cannot have been an insurmountable difficulty to extract torpedoes from a U-boat with only on-board equipment.

[mookiemookie]

From what I've read, supply ships had very limited supplies of torpedoes and you'd be lucky to get only two or three from them. There was an interrogation report somewhere of captured U-boat men who said as much.

The Type XIV "Milch Kuh" boat only carried four spare torpedoes. Since I try to play as close to history as possible, I never use resupply ships to stock up on torpedoes, only fuel.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by joegrundman

Well Spain's position was complicated. They had just had a very bitter and destructive civil war, with the axis supported nationalists defeating the republicans who had communist and democratic support. So a sizeable percentage of Spain's population, including Franco, had very close ties with the axis powers that had been their support and co-fighters.

But if Franco had then thrown in with Germany at that time, it could have reignited the civil war again when he was trying to stabilise and rebuild the country, which i expect is why the most he offered the axis was axis-leaning neutrality.

Good points. I think another thing Franco would have had to worry about in casting his lot with Hitler were vulnerable overseas Spanish colonies and territories like the Canary Islands or the Spanish Sahara in Africa. I think the British would have quickly seized them like they previously did with Italian Ethiopia and Vichy Madagascar. Like neutral Sweden, which even let German troops cross their country at one point, Spain had to walk a diplomatic tightrope.

[joegrundman]

yes, those are good points too!

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

The only thing that gives me pause about that guess is not knowing what sort of difficulties there are in hoisting an unexpended torpedo out of a sub as compared to putting it in.

I just assumed that they had to use a crane to lift them out of the ship's hold and down to the u-boat, so it would work both ways. But I agree with your observation and others that torpedoes were rationed out a little at a time. Nobody stopped of at the local Torpedo Supply Store and refilled the entire torpedo rooms. Not only limited supply but a whole lot of work and time involved in that operation.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Good point. "You're coming home and have supplies left, make a little stop at Vigo..."

Also the supply ships might have been like the milch cows, only giving out a couple for the trip home (or the Gibraltar transit).

this would be the most likley scenario.

U-boats returning from mission would likely transfer torpedoes under cover of darkness aboard the supply ships, then head for ports in france.

also, when you go into resupply in GWX you get a full load out of torpedoes... in real life you probably only got one or two.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I just assumed that they had to use a crane to lift them out of the ship's hold and down to the u-boat, so it would work both ways. But I agree with your observation and others that torpedoes were rationed out a little at a time. Nobody stopped of at the local Torpedo Supply Store and refilled the entire torpedo rooms. Not only limited supply but a whole lot of work and time involved in that operation.

I've seen footage of a resupply from a milch kuhe and you are right Steve. They dig a crane on the tower, hoist the torp backwards out the hatch it went in and the floated the top across with life vests lashed to it.

The process was erversed on the receiving sub.

[GoldenRivet]

i wonder if there is a way to mod the torpedo stock in supply ships and subs.

what i mean is... in Lorient, you see T1 - 154 available (so you have 154 in stock)

could you edit the supply ships, and supply subs to have perhaps - three - T1s available?

this way if you show up to a supply ship or sub empty you are only going back out with a few fish in the tubes.

i would also venture to guess that fuel would be rationed as well.

perhaps modify it so that every time you leave a supply sub you only get 3/4 of a tank or 1/2 a tank etc?

[joegrundman]

I've seen footage of a resupply from a milch kuhe and you are right Steve. They dig a crane on the tower, hoist the torp backwards out the hatch it went in and the floated the top across with life vests lashed to it.

The process was erversed on the receiving sub.

in a book i've got i think it said they took advantage of being submarines too. They floated the torp over, the receiving u-boat would go to decks awash, the torp would be positioned over the deck and the u-boat would surface to pick up the torpedo.

they also made sure that during each operation, only 1 u-boat was on the surface at one time.

i wonder if there is a way to mod the torpedo stock in supply ships and subs.

what i mean is... in Lorient, you see T1 - 154 available (so you have 154 in stock)

could you edit the supply ships, and supply subs to have perhaps - three - T1s available?

this way if you show up to a supply ship or sub empty you are only going back out with a few fish in the tubes.

i would also venture to guess that fuel would be rationed as well.

perhaps modify it so that every time you leave a supply sub you only get 3/4 of a tank or 1/2 a tank etc?

sounds like a very good idea!