GWX 3.0 - Ship Recognition Manual - Double entries?

[mark2398]

I noticed by skimming through the ship recognition manual several Merchants, which entries that are very similar (and identical from the picture):

Tug Boat:
Mast: 21,4m vs. 21,5m
Draft: 4,6m vs. 4,5m

Large Tanker:
Mast: 28,0m vs. 26,8m
Draft: 11,7m vs. 11,9m

Is that intentional? How would I differentiate them in bad weather through the UZO?

Mark

I just noticed this problem as well. I didn't want to make a new post, so sorry for necro'ing this thread. I was unable to find any other threads that spoke of this problem. Someone told me for multiple entries one was the lit version and one was unlit. Any help/info is appreciated. Thanks for your time!

[scott_c2911]

I dont think its a problem. The ships have slightly different size parameters if you compare the two ships data. How to tell the difference I couldnt tell you though.

[Fourfifties]

You'll need to rely on your weapon officer to ID the right one on these cases.

[Sailor Steve]

Unfortunately people who play at 100% don't have that option. It's still a lot better than real life, where ID books had photographs of hundreds of individual ships, but often the information accompanying them was wrong. The captain's best asset was his experience. The truly great skippers could look at a ship and guesstimate everything at a glance, and like as not be close enough to get the job done.

[maillemaker]

The truly great skippers could look at a ship and guesstimate everything at a glance, and like as not be close enough to get the job done.

I must be closing in on "truly great".

I'm running 100% realism. There are so many entries in the ship manual that I almost never bother trying to thumb through and find them. I only really use them for escorts to determine their draft so that I can slide a mag torpedo under them when they are chasing me. But there are a lot less escorts in the warship book.

But for merchants, I just guess the speed, usually 5-7 knots, and get to within 500 meters and let them have it.

Steve

[Zosimus]

When you look at the ship through the periscope or UZI it will tell you generally what it is that you're looking at. So far I've only seen Warship, Merchant, or Coastal Vessel. I presume that the tugboat will show as a coastal vessel whereas the other will show as a merchant.

As for 100% realism, I play with the Realistic setting, which gives me 100% but still includes automatic map updates. If I didn't have that, I would simply shoot the weaponsmaster and dump him overboard. He must be good for something, right? Anyway if you really zoom in on the ship it will give you a kind of a size estimate based on the marker you see. Sometimes you zoom in and think, "That's hella small..." and when you get close enough to see it through the finder, it's invariably some kind of a coastal vessel like a sailboat or a trawler.

I must be closing in on "truly great".

I'm running 100% realism. There are so many entries in the ship manual that I almost never bother trying to thumb through and find them. I only really use them for escorts to determine their draft so that I can slide a mag torpedo under them when they are chasing me. But there are a lot less escorts in the warship book.

But for merchants, I just guess the speed, usually 5-7 knots, and get to within 500 meters and let them have it.

Steve

500 meters seems awful close. I would never get that close when engaging anything in a convoy. I guess a single merchant, this method would suffice.

When you look at the ship through the periscope or UZI it will tell you generally what it is that you're looking at. So far I've only seen Warship, Merchant, or Coastal Vessel. I presume that the tugboat will show as a coastal vessel whereas the other will show as a merchant.

As for 100% realism, I play with the Realistic setting, which gives me 100% but still includes automatic map updates. If I didn't have that, I would simply shoot the weaponsmaster and dump him overboard. He must be good for something, right? Anyway if you really zoom in on the ship it will give you a kind of a size estimate based on the marker you see. Sometimes you zoom in and think, "That's hella small..." and when you get close enough to see it through the finder, it's invariably some kind of a coastal vessel like a sailboat or a trawler.

Sorry I don't follow you? The issue is there is multiple copies of the same exact ship. They differ only in stats, sometimes mast height, or draft. The game doesn't render these ships differently. There aren't any physical difference. I don't want to rely on my Weapons Officer, but I guess I'll just have margin of error when engaging these ships. I doubt they had very accurate information in the real manuals anyway, at least not for every ship.

Anyway, thanks for the replies.

[Zosimus]

Maybe I don't get it. The first poster that started the thread was talking about the difference between a Tug Boat and a Tanker. I assume that if looked through the finder the Tug Boat will say "Coastal Vessel" whereas the Tanker will say "Tanker."

Second, why are you trying to ID the boats anyway? If they belong to a hostile nation, I just sink them straight up. Coastal Vessels I normally just take out with the deck gun. On merchants, I use a torpedo and then follow up with deck gun. The one tanker I saw I salvoed. Warships, I avoid like the plague. I assume destroyers can be killed with a single torpedo, but I never see them on a steady heading long enough to get their speed. Larger warships must need multiple torpedoes. I'm certanly not going to hit them with one and then try to surface to finish them off with the deck gun.

Originally Posted by Zosimus

Maybe I don't get it. The first poster that started the thread was talking about the difference between a Tug Boat and a Tanker. I assume that if looked through the finder the Tug Boat will say "Coastal Vessel" whereas the Tanker will say "Tanker."

Second, why are you trying to ID the boats anyway? If they belong to a hostile nation, I just sink them straight up. Coastal Vessels I normally just take out with the deck gun. On merchants, I use a torpedo and then follow up with deck gun. The one tanker I saw I salvoed. Warships, I avoid like the plague. I assume destroyers can be killed with a single torpedo, but I never see them on a steady heading long enough to get their speed. Larger warships must need multiple torpedoes. I'm certanly not going to hit them with one and then try to surface to finish them off with the deck gun.

The first post is comparing two tug boats and two large tankers but not comparing against their types, i.e. tug vs tanker. He is comparing their mast and draft. See the vs in-between stats.

Tug Boat:
Mast: 21,4m vs. 21,5m
Draft: 4,6m vs. 4,5m

I'm going to assume you aren't playing on a high realism setting. Without ID ranging is difficult for myself.

I figured out the issue though, and will release a small patch to clear up duplicate ships in SRM.

[Zosimus]

All right, let's work this through and see where the communication is breaking down. Here's my procedure:

Normally my first step is to get a hydrophone contact. I generally hunt submerged, and I have found that I can get hydrophone contacts from much farther than I can see visually.

As soon as I get a hydrophone contact, I hit ESC twice to reduce my time compression to 1. I draw a small circle at the far edge of the hydrophone contact and then measure the bearing to the target using the protractor. I turn my heading to proceed directly for the sound contact and proceed submerged at flank speed. I up the time compression to 64 and wait for recontact. Depending on various factors that may take up to 15 minutes of game time.

When I get recontact I again hit ESC twice and then draw a line through the middle of my original circle to the end of the new hydrophone contact. This gives me the target's heading to within a few degrees. I surface and proceed towards the target based on its speed. If it's slow I assume it is traveling at 7 knots–the fastest slow speed. If it's medium, I assume it's traveling at 11 knots. I calculate my intercept course using the procedure at http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=88961

I proceed along the intercept course at standard if the ship is slow or at full speed if the ship is medium. The only time I encountered a fast target I couldn't catch it even at flank speed so now I give up on fast targets unless they're approaching. I usually arrive at the intercept point ahead of the ship because I err on the high side of the ship's speed. If the ship exactly on time then I know my guess of the ship's speed was on. If the ship arrives later, I know the ship is going more slowly than the guessed speed. Once I get the ship spotted notification, I ask the watchman for the range and write it down. If the ship is closing I call all stop, otherwise I reduce speed and try to parallel its course.

The ship normally shows as a small block on my screen. I center this block and zoom in until I get a fuzzy blob that kind of tells me something about the ship. Certain shapes make me think it's a coastal vessel. If I think so, I will try to get a visual on the target using the UZI. If it is a coastal vessel I close to deck gun range and engage the target, weather permitting. If the weather does not permit, I abandon the target and resume my previous course or search pattern.

Assuming it is some kind of a cargo or merchant ship, I get the mark tool and wait until it moves a bit. Then I slap an X down the ship's stern. I count "thousand-one-thousand-two-thousand-three" as I hit O and get the mouse near the stopwatch. I start it at the end of the thousand-three count. I believe this is pretty close to 3 seconds. I then time the target for 6 minutes 26 seconds. As you probably know, the target should cover 100m times its speed in knots in 3 minutes 14.4 seconds so I do double that: 6 minutes 28.8 seconds. I multiply the number I get by 5, so if I measure 1.4 on the compass, I calculate the target's speed as 7 knots. I write down the target's speed and then calculate its course from the first mark through the bow of the ship. I have never had this bearing be off by more than a degree.

If the target is closing, I try to take the shot immediately. I turn perpendicular, submerge, and enter the information into the TDC. I choose 2 meters depth, impact torpedoes, AOB 90, 0 bearing, and enter the target's speed. I try to get within 2000 meters of the target before firing. I am very aggressive with underwater speed to reach a good range. I won't hesitate to go flank speed underwater. I draw a 2.0 circle from the drawn intersection point between my course and that of the target. Once I pass the 2.0 circle I either call all stop and drift part of the rest of the way, or I call back slow if the target is close to the optimum firing point and call all stop once my speed drops to 0 knots.

I write down the gyroangle and draw a line from my new position to the perfect firing point on the map. I measure the distance to target down the gyroangle line, not the torpedo line. I use either the ruler or the compass tool to do so. I flood the torpedo tube, and then I turn my scope until the gyroangle reads zero and then ask the sonar guy for a report on the nearest sound contact. I do that every minute until the target is at or near the bearing I am looking at. Once it is, I go scope up, lock the scope, and fire. I don't wait for the "perfect" gyroangle. I prefer night shots and only abort the shooting procedure if the ship is lit. I don't look for a flag. I follow the torpedo progress on the F6 screen. When I see it is near the ship I go scope up and try to note where on the ship it impacts. Sometimes the ship notes my scope and zigs, but it's usually too late or the zig improves my shot.

If the ship is not closing I take another tack. I zoom out to where I no longer see the graph paper lines and draw the longest course I can for the ship from one side of the screen to the other. Then I calculate and draw a perpendicular line to that course. Ideally this line goes right through the ship. Next I use the compass tool to draw a circle large enough that the target should not be able to see me. I use the original range to target I got from the watchman and wrote down at the beginning. If I made visual contact at 4400 meters then I draw a circle the size of 5000 meters. I then plot my course to take me to the edge of that 5000 meter circle. If the target is quite close, I go slowly or submerge. If it is moving away, I usually proceed at full speed on the surface. Once I am beyond that 5000 meter circle (or whatever range) then I turn to parallel the ship's course and go to flank. If I can still see the ship I will make periodic course corrections to try to keep the ship's bearing at 90 or 270 once I have passed it. That will send me in slightly towards the line. If I have lost sight of the ship, I will just proceed parallel until I think I've passed it and then change course so that I intercept the very end of the drawn line. Once I'm close to the end of the line I submerge and go to one knot. I set up the shot the same as above.

Under no circumstances do I identify the ship. I don't know what I've sunk until after I've sunk it. It magically shows up on the captain's log with the exact time, type, and tonnage.

What's your procedure?

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by Zosimus

All right, let's work this through and see where the communication is breaking down. Here's my procedure:
...

I ask the watchman for the range and write it down.
...
I get the mark tool and wait until it moves a bit. Then I slap an X down the ship's stern.

There is your difference. You ask your crewman to come up with a range, ... based on what? Or rely on the all knowing GPS-accurate map-updates.

The other way is to relate size features to angles and thus range. That involves alot more.

[EDIT] Not saying any one method is better. Just different.

[Pioneer]

Reinstalling on a new PC.

[maillemaker]

The only reason I check the ID manual is to confirm target drafts so that I can slip magnetic torpedoes under their hull, particularly escorts.

If you don't have map updates on, the 3:15 rule is harder to use to obtain ship speed.

In which case if you really need to know the ship speed you will need the target length to use the Fixed Wire method of speed calculation.

I'm running 100% realism with map contacts off also. I usually estimate the speed unless it is a convoy radio contact where speed was provided.

Steve

[Zosimus]

Originally Posted by Pisces

There is your difference. You ask your crewman to come up with a range, ... based on what? Or rely on the all knowing GPS-accurate map-updates.

The other way is to relate size features to angles and thus range. That involves alot more.

[EDIT] Not saying any one method is better. Just different.

Well, I use the 100% realism feature provided with GWX. This provides map updates. Now I assume that what happens is the watchman on the deck calls down his observations to one of the three sailors I have working on the bridge, who relays them to the weaponsmaster, and he and I roughly set it up on the map we're looking at.

Now you may ask: How does the watchman know the range? Well, I assume that he stands at one end of the observation tower while someone else stands at the other end and look at the same thing. The difference in their bearings serves to triangulate.

But let's say, for the sake of argument, that you decided to nix all of that, and you refused to use the ranges provided by your hydrophone officer, too. You were determined to do things the unrealistically hard way. Fine. Use the four bearings method that was mentioned at http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...9&postcount=37

I'm sure you must have heard of it considering that the manual is up on YOUR website.