Dick O'Kane Targeting questions

Sniper31 · 04-15-09, 08:43 PM

Okay Gang, SOS in effect....

I have been working on my manual targeting experience (which is very rusty to say the least) and using the wonderful tutorial video from Rockin Robbins as a reference (the Dick O'Kane Targeting Video). Last night I was practicing the technique diligently to say the least, and I kept coming up with some issues that, I'm hoping, can have some better light shed on them from all the superb skippers here at Subsim.

First, let me set the scenario. I am in a campaign under TMO 1.7, with RSRDC running as well. It is December 1942. The weather is no clouds or precipitation, light fog and fairly calm seas, and it is late afternoon. My boat is the USS Grouper (SS-214 Gato class) and I have Mk14 Torpedoes loaded. I have watched and rewatched, paused, hit back several times during the video to make sure I am doing things right. In so doing, I came across one small detail, that I do not think is a problem at all, but just to make sure, I wanted to ask here. In the Dick O'Kane video, when setting the range to target using the TDC, the 'little plastic triangle' referred to does not actually move as indicated. Rather, the range wheel itself rotates, allowwing one to align the desired range with the 'little plastic triangle'. No big deal, I just wanted to make sure that since its not causing me issues with range settings. Now on to the real reason for this post.

So, given the above scenario, I have set up for a nice 90 degree attack on a small, two ship convoy (a Large Old Passenger Carrier and Small Modern Composite Freighter). The convoy is heading South, and I am attacking from the East, approximately 1100 yards from the convoy's course track. I am at periscope depth (battlestations manned) and creeping East, closer to the convoy's course track at exactly a 90 degree angle. Using the technique from the video, I had earlier estimated the convoy speed at 11 knots. All torpedoes set to 'FAST'.I saved the situation at this point so I can rework the attack several times for practice. From this point on, I tried a few different things to try and have success. Here's what I tried:
1) Set all torpedoe's depth 3-5 feet less than the draft of the ships
2) Set all torpedoe's depth 3-5 feet more than the draft of the ships
3) Set a mix of torpedo depths from 5 feet to draft depth of ships
4) matched range in TDC to actual range of target ships
5) tried a range setting slightly farther than the target ships actual range
6) tried a range setting slightly less than the target ships actual range
7) tried a mix of 'Contact' only and 'Contact Influence'

and lastly
8) pointed bow and stern at targets, fired every tube regardless of TDC settings, fore and aft out of frustration, hopelessly praying for a hit

Regardless of the above, I would get one outcome or a second, or even a mixture of the two. The first outcome is that the fish would appear to go beneath the target, regardless of range settings and exlode harmlessly past the ship, on the far side (this is what led me to trying different range settings). The second outcome is that the torpedoe's would occasionaly impact and be reported as duds, but not nearly as much as the first outcome.

I probably ran the above scenario 20 times last night and never got a hit, only LOTS of near misses. Several times I could see the torpedo wake going straight for the bow of the ship, only to blow up on the far side. I just don't get it. What am I doing wrong? Do I have that many bad torpedoes at one time? I know historically the U.S. Navy had severe problems with the Mk14, if that is the problem than why am I not getting more hits with dud reports as opposed to the explosion on the far side of the target ship. That outcome was by far the most common.

Okay, this post has gone on long enough. Thank you for bearing with it, and hopefully it boils down to me just making a small mistake....wishful thinking.

AngronIsAngry · 04-16-09, 10:24 AM

The deep runners have nothing to do with the range setting. In Stock they most often run ~9ft deeper than set and TMO is none better

.
So it is probably best to set the torps for a very shallow depth and rely more on the contact than the magnetic exploder. This is not to say to set the exploder to contact over magnetic, since the depth keeping problem might cause the torp to run beneath a ship with a fairly shallow draft.
Also hitting on a perfect 90° setup simulates a constructional problem, which results in tons of duds.

Rockin Robbins · 04-16-09, 11:39 AM

Yes, what works before June 1943 is to set torpedoes to run as shallow as you can set them. They are not set there by default. Set them even shallower and you'll get hits. Also make sure you pick both magnetic and contact pistols. Sounds like your targeting itself is working out well. I'm not sure what's up with your inability to pull the triangle down to 1100 yards or so, but as you saw, it doesn't matter, so long as you can give 1000 to 1500 yards range to the TDC.

AVGWarhawk · 04-16-09, 12:10 PM

Stick with this method. Ever since I watched it on RR's video I never looked back on the L key again.

It gets a bit tedious after a while but I'm sinking ships and using the lock/stadimeter are a hell of a lot more tedious than using this method. At this point I can pretty much shoot from the hip with good success

MonTana_Prussian · 04-16-09, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Stick with this method. Ever since I watched it on RR's video I never looked back on the L key again.

It gets a bit tedious after a while but I'm sinking ships and using the lock/stadimeter are a hell of a lot more tedious than using this method. At this point I can pretty much shoot from the hip with good success

I agree completely. Since I started using this method,my success has gone way up.

Sniper31 · 04-16-09, 08:42 PM

Well guys, first off let me say thanks for the comments.

Secondly, not to worry, from the first attempt I fell in love with this targeting technique, and thanks to my problems listed above, have become quite proficient in using it while trying to rectify why my torps were not exploding. Nonetheless, last night was a successful night of ship sinking thanks to the tutorial video (thanks RR

) and the Dick O'Kane technique. I fired LOTS of fish last night, and had LOTS O' hits. What I did while waiting on replies to my first post was set my fish to run as shallow as possible, and then to also ensure than my torps were impacting at slightly less than or more than 90 degrees. Success! And, it turns out, those are exactly the things you all ended up recommending above, so that only proves I asked the right folks for help. Sounds like a win win situation.

Again thanks everyone, and here's to many more happy sinkings thanks to this particular manual targeting technique.

04-15-09, 08:43 PM	#1
Sniper31 Mate Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: USA, Hawaii Posts: 56 Downloads: 78 Uploads: 0	Dick O'Kane Targeting questions Okay Gang, SOS in effect.... I have been working on my manual targeting experience (which is very rusty to say the least) and using the wonderful tutorial video from Rockin Robbins as a reference (the Dick O'Kane Targeting Video). Last night I was practicing the technique diligently to say the least, and I kept coming up with some issues that, I'm hoping, can have some better light shed on them from all the superb skippers here at Subsim. First, let me set the scenario. I am in a campaign under TMO 1.7, with RSRDC running as well. It is December 1942. The weather is no clouds or precipitation, light fog and fairly calm seas, and it is late afternoon. My boat is the USS Grouper (SS-214 Gato class) and I have Mk14 Torpedoes loaded. I have watched and rewatched, paused, hit back several times during the video to make sure I am doing things right. In so doing, I came across one small detail, that I do not think is a problem at all, but just to make sure, I wanted to ask here. In the Dick O'Kane video, when setting the range to target using the TDC, the 'little plastic triangle' referred to does not actually move as indicated. Rather, the range wheel itself rotates, allowwing one to align the desired range with the 'little plastic triangle'. No big deal, I just wanted to make sure that since its not causing me issues with range settings. Now on to the real reason for this post. So, given the above scenario, I have set up for a nice 90 degree attack on a small, two ship convoy (a Large Old Passenger Carrier and Small Modern Composite Freighter). The convoy is heading South, and I am attacking from the East, approximately 1100 yards from the convoy's course track. I am at periscope depth (battlestations manned) and creeping East, closer to the convoy's course track at exactly a 90 degree angle. Using the technique from the video, I had earlier estimated the convoy speed at 11 knots. All torpedoes set to 'FAST'.I saved the situation at this point so I can rework the attack several times for practice. From this point on, I tried a few different things to try and have success. Here's what I tried: 1) Set all torpedoe's depth 3-5 feet less than the draft of the ships 2) Set all torpedoe's depth 3-5 feet more than the draft of the ships 3) Set a mix of torpedo depths from 5 feet to draft depth of ships 4) matched range in TDC to actual range of target ships 5) tried a range setting slightly farther than the target ships actual range 6) tried a range setting slightly less than the target ships actual range 7) tried a mix of 'Contact' only and 'Contact Influence' and lastly 8) pointed bow and stern at targets, fired every tube regardless of TDC settings, fore and aft out of frustration, hopelessly praying for a hit Regardless of the above, I would get one outcome or a second, or even a mixture of the two. The first outcome is that the fish would appear to go beneath the target, regardless of range settings and exlode harmlessly past the ship, on the far side (this is what led me to trying different range settings). The second outcome is that the torpedoe's would occasionaly impact and be reported as duds, but not nearly as much as the first outcome. I probably ran the above scenario 20 times last night and never got a hit, only LOTS of near misses. Several times I could see the torpedo wake going straight for the bow of the ship, only to blow up on the far side. I just don't get it. What am I doing wrong? Do I have that many bad torpedoes at one time? I know historically the U.S. Navy had severe problems with the Mk14, if that is the problem than why am I not getting more hits with dud reports as opposed to the explosion on the far side of the target ship. That outcome was by far the most common. Okay, this post has gone on long enough. Thank you for bearing with it, and hopefully it boils down to me just making a small mistake....wishful thinking. __________________ RSRDC & TMO USER

04-16-09, 10:24 AM	#2
AngronIsAngry Mate Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 53 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	The deep runners have nothing to do with the range setting. In Stock they most often run ~9ft deeper than set and TMO is none better . So it is probably best to set the torps for a very shallow depth and rely more on the contact than the magnetic exploder. This is not to say to set the exploder to contact over magnetic, since the depth keeping problem might cause the torp to run beneath a ship with a fairly shallow draft. Also hitting on a perfect 90° setup simulates a constructional problem, which results in tons of duds. __________________ "No Boom?" "No Boom, today. Maybe Boom tomorrow. Things always go Boom!"

04-16-09, 11:39 AM	#3
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	Yes, what works before June 1943 is to set torpedoes to run as shallow as you can set them. They are not set there by default. Set them even shallower and you'll get hits. Also make sure you pick both magnetic and contact pistols. Sounds like your targeting itself is working out well. I'm not sure what's up with your inability to pull the triangle down to 1100 yards or so, but as you saw, it doesn't matter, so long as you can give 1000 to 1500 yards range to the TDC. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

04-16-09, 12:10 PM	#4
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,257 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Stick with this method. Ever since I watched it on RR's video I never looked back on the L key again. It gets a bit tedious after a while but I'm sinking ships and using the lock/stadimeter are a hell of a lot more tedious than using this method. At this point I can pretty much shoot from the hip with good success __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

04-16-09, 08:42 PM	#6
Sniper31 Mate Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: USA, Hawaii Posts: 56 Downloads: 78 Uploads: 0	Well guys, first off let me say thanks for the comments. Secondly, not to worry, from the first attempt I fell in love with this targeting technique, and thanks to my problems listed above, have become quite proficient in using it while trying to rectify why my torps were not exploding. Nonetheless, last night was a successful night of ship sinking thanks to the tutorial video (thanks RR) and the Dick O'Kane technique. I fired LOTS of fish last night, and had LOTS O' hits. What I did while waiting on replies to my first post was set my fish to run as shallow as possible, and then to also ensure than my torps were impacting at slightly less than or more than 90 degrees. Success! And, it turns out, those are exactly the things you all ended up recommending above, so that only proves I asked the right folks for help. Sounds like a win win situation. Again thanks everyone, and here's to many more happy sinkings thanks to this particular manual targeting technique. __________________ RSRDC & TMO USER