RFB First Impressions and TMO Comparison.

[Soundman]

I have been a TMO user since its first inception called "Flavored to Taste" and in the last week decided to give RFB a tryout. I am now about two weeks into a patrol and and discovering differences. Some of them are enjoyable, others are not. I realize these are my opinions only, but thought a little banter comparing the two should make for an interesting discussion.

The first thing I noticed was the difference between the two environmental mods used. Both mods have a lot going for them, but I do believe the best of both worlds is going to be coming soon, due to Kriller and Clear teaming up to create a combination and blending of their work.

I also like the scopes, however the bearing indicator becomes much improved with the addition of Vanjasts scopes, in that it is expanded and much easier to read finer increments. He also uses a red firing wire and this helps increase visibility at night.

The sounds are also much different and again, I feel there are tradeoffs. The biggest difference to start with are the exterior and interior engine sounds. While on the bridge, I hear very little engine sound. Now I must admit I enjoyed hearing that diesel sound with TMO (and stock for that matter), but I did wonder about hearing diesel sounds outside of the boat when obviously, the engines are on the inside. In comparison, many of the sounds are different, yet subjective, as few of us have been inside a submarine. That being said, it's hard to say what sounds are better.

I found the gauges to be of my liking. They are well detailed and easy to see. While looking through the binoculars I noticed you could no longer look through the conning tower and of course that is realistic.

I did manage to come across a DD and put it under after reloading a save twice. I have read and threads that TMO's DD's are more deadly, but that could be debatable. Granted, fighting only one to this point may not prove to be a true test for comparison, I initially tried a down the throat shot, only to fail twice due to the destroyer turning quickly to evade the torpedoes. I have seen this evasive maneuver before in TMO, but it seemed the torpedoes were spotted sooner.

There is a major difference in fuel economy. My current patrol is in the East China Sea. I have been running on standard speed 99.8% of the time and only have a little more than half a tank left. I am beginning to wonder if I will be able to complete my objective and still have enough fuel to return home.

Most of the above statements I would consider to be positive for RFB. Now I would like to express some of the things that I have found to be frustrating and some not so realistic, in my opinion.

The stock navigation map shows much better detail as far as ocean depths go, whereas RFB shows only two different depths.

I also tried to start my career in june of 1942 to enable the capability of having radar on the boat, only to find out I didn't have enough renown. If I were a captain on a boat issued a command in that time period, would I need renown? I don't think so. Can you imagine finishing a patrol in real life with radar available only for command to tell you you don't have enough renown? Because I didn't have radar, I was using the hydrophones quite a bit and I also noticed after sinking two ships, the contacts still showed up on sonar. This was just an observation, it may not be a RFB thing.

On my last sinking of a Hog Island Freighter, it was night time and I could clearly see the boat from 3500 yards and beyond and had a difficult time keeping the scope locked onto the target. Even as close as 400 yards the scope would not stay locked. I found this to be extremely frustrating and very unrealistic. It would seem that in real life, any human being that can look through a scope and see a target could hold the scope on the target. So why is this implemented in the game this way. If you can visualize an object you should be able to lock onto it. It becomes even more frustrating when trying to use the stadmeter for range, when the target becomes unlocked before you have the chance to enable it. I realize this has always been a problem even with stock to a degree. The stadmeter should be available whether you can see a target or not.

Just one more complaint for now, and this one I know how to fix myself easily enough, but geez, could the opening video, at the games startup be any louder! It scared the hell out of me !

I'm sure many people would just say " go play TMO". My purpose is not to down RFB, actually I'm quite enjoying the change for now and thought a change of pace would be nice. I certainly mean no disrespect to any of the people who've worked hard to create this mod, or any mod for that matter. Anyone who has spent any time in this forum realizes the vast differences of opinion in the way people wish to play the game. I genuinely wish to debate the differences for better or worse between the two mods and hope something good could come of it. In closing, thanks to all of you who have dedicated your time and effort creating RFB. I highly respect you even if it does not turn out to be my cup of tea, but I will certainly be giving it more time to grow on me. Again, these are my first impressions.

[donut]

Same here exactly !

[AVGWarhawk]

Fair summary!

Just a few responses.

Navigation map: This was changed to what you see in RFB because maps of this area available were not detailed at all. In fact, some maps were swiped from old National Geographics or old school text books. Sometimes they got lucky and found a map on POW pulled from the water. So, RFB went for the not so informative map as it was.

Locking scope or not locking scope. Since the patch it is not so bad. At least not like it was when you were sitting on top of the vessel and could not lock. You know what though, I studied Rockin Robins Dick O'Kane method and have not used lock since. I do not think I will from here on out. Give that method a try and you will see that locking the vessel button is wasted space.

Sounds: I change my interior sound. The RFB interior sound makes my head hurt after a while. I can live with the low engine sounds. There are programs out there that allow you to adjust volumes. Ask RDP what he uses. Make yourself your own personal sound mod

Fuel: Never been a problem for me. I guess you are heavy on the throttle

DD: Yes, I wish they were a bit more aggressive but every now and then you get that killer DD that will chase you to hells gates. I think there is a good mix of deadly DD to stupid DD.

Anyway, more coming for RFB and posts like this that do not start with "RFB SUCKS" go much further! Join the RFB forum and post your likes or dislikes. This is how things get better.

[Soundman]

[quote=AVGWarhawk]Fair summary!

Just a few responses.

Navigation map: This was changed to what you see in RFB because maps of this area available were not detailed at all. In fact, some maps were swiped from old National Geographics or old school text books. Sometimes they got lucky and found a map on POW pulled from the water. So, RFB went for the not so informative map as it was.

That's a good explaination and understandable. Another observation though...It's kind of funny that I while was moving aound in the control room I noticed one of the officers looking over some charts. I closed in for a closer look and these appeared to be detailed depth charts.

Locking scope or not locking scope. Since the patch it is not so bad. At least not like it was when you were sitting on top of the vessel and could not lock. You know what though, I studied Rockin Robins Dick O'Kane method and have not used lock since. I do not think I will from here on out. Give that method a try and you will see that locking the vessel button is wasted space.

I use the O'Kane method often and anytime I can. The reason I needed to use the stadmeter on the freighter was because I did not have time to calculate the speed and I was trying to use the position keeper to verify my estimation.

Sounds: I change my interior sound. The RFB interior sound makes my head hurt after a while. I can live with the low engine sounds. There are programs out there that allow you to adjust volumes. Ask RDP what he uses. Make yourself your own personal sound mod

That's a distinct possibility. Some of the sounds I like and I have not played RFB long enough yet to come to a conclusion on to which sound pack I prefer, or as you suggest, I may decide to blend the two together.

Fuel: Never been a problem for me. I guess you are heavy on the throttle

I have definitely not been heavy on the throttle. To the contrary, the only time I did not run at standard speed was when I had a long range sonar contact on the hog island freighter. I detected the contact myself using the hydrophones and because I could not tell whether or not he was moving away or towards me, I ran at full speed for a short time until I determined he was moving toward me. Actually, this brings to mind an observation I left out in the first post. While I could clearly hear the contact while using the hydrophones myself, the sonar man could not detect a contact. The sonarman must be deaf! I don't mind the fuel economy, as with TMO I had an officer with "special abilities" and realize it is not realistic.

DD: Yes, I wish they were a bit more aggressive but every now and then you get that killer DD that will chase you to hells gates. I think there is a good mix of deadly DD to stupid DD.

From what I have read, the majority of people seem to believe that the destroyers in TMO are tougher. I have only had one run in with a destroyer so far, but my first impression was not that it was easier. I had a pretty good success rate with down the throat shots with TMO. I found my first try in RFB not so easy. Again, the jury is still out on this subject.

Anyway, more coming for RFB and posts like this that do not start with "RFB SUCKS" go much further! Join the RFB forum and post your likes or dislikes. This is how things get better.

I wholeheartedly agree and have found things I like with RFB and will take your suggestion and join the forum, I was not aware there was a separate forum for it. I'm not knocking RFB at all. I consider myself to be pretty experienced playing the game almost exclusively with TMO and thought an outside opinion may prove to be productive. As you say, "this is how things get better". Who knows, after playing it a little longer I may prefer it, time will tell.

[AVGWarhawk]

I never thought about that map on the table being detailed Good point! Just eye candy! For me, game play is on top of the list and efforts pretty much concentrate there for the moment. But you know, drop LukeFF a note about the map. LukeFF takes everything offered and sees if it works or attempts to make it as accurate as it can be. I have not played TMO but I suspect Duci's DD are more diabolical in TMO. After all, Bungo Pete was his brainstorm I can not really compare the two mods with you. I have not played TMO. As far as the locking of the scope, I use it every now and then like you stated. Most times if I can not get the speed mathmatically I shoot from the hip. Sometimes I win, sometimes not! And the sound pack, what I did was grab Leo Vampires original sound pack and swiped the sounds I like from his and mix it together with the RFB sound pack. Very simple operation with a file swap or two. As far as fuel, I use standard to get to my patrol area. Once there I patrol at slow. Again, fuel has been ok for me. The sonarman is deaf. I think he has been deaf since day one. Glad you joined the forum and drop a suggestion or two. It does make it better in the end.

[ancient46]

There are several free programs on the web that can be used to modify sound files. I use Audacity but even the Windows supplied "Sound Recorder" has the option to increase or decrease the sound level. With Audacity I lowered the volume of the General Quarters file and shortened it a bit. That file caused a rapid increase in heart rate and sent the sleeping dogs in the man cave/control room running for cover! Man that file is loud when you are quietly sneaking up on a heavily defended convoy.

One shocking fact I found is that not everyone agrees with me or has the same priorities as me. It doesn't make any sense but there is no fighting human nature My solution is to make my own Mod to fix the things that bother me.

As far as the map goes you can remove or change gradient.tga file in RFB. My map has a green gradient for land and the shallow water color starts at about 100 ft. Also you get the shallow water warning when the boat has about 65 ft under the keel.

[Soundman]

I know what you mean about certains sounds. The one that always made me jump out of my seat was the "Relieve the Watch". I used S3D to turn it down. One thing that has always driven me crazy, is the stopwatch (chronometer) ticking away loudly. After a while it got like that Edgar Allen Poe story "The Tell Tale Heart" where the heartbeat get's louder and louder until it drove him insane. For me, that's the chrono. I have to it have turned down until I can just barely hear it or I go insane. I'm surprised I've never heard anyone else complain of this. BTW, if anyone wants to do this, it's the "Menu.Periscope.RotClicktTorp" file, who would'a thunk it, took me quite a while to discover that one.

[LukeFF]

I'll just address two things, since AVG has done a pretty good job here:

• Charts (note: only landlubbers use maps! ): the charts you see in the control rooms were downloaded from the NOAA website. With the shortage of charts, especially early in the war, these may or may not have been used by boats going on patrol. Also, do note the areas the charts cover: the Philippine Islands and Hawaii. It would thus be logical to believe these areas would be detailed, as the U.S. had long occupied these areas before the war began. While I have plenty of good charts from the Kriegsmarine, I have not found a single US navy chart from the WWII era.
• Renown and radar: yes, like others here, I don't totally like the way renown works in the game. It reminds me of arcades where one redeems their tokens to claim a prize. In reality, radar and sonar was added to the subs as the equipment and time was available to install them. It wasn't really contingent on a commander's success at all. Now, guns were a slightly different matter, as it was really up to the commander (within certain limits, of course) what type of gun armament he wanted for his boat. Thus, the renown system works alright here.

In a perfect world, radar, just like the conning towers, should be installed automatically between patrols, based on the time period being simulated. Gun upgrades should pretty much stay like they are now, IMO.

As a final note, do note I am working on an entirely new renown system for RFB 2.0. The bigger the merchant, the more renown one will earn (not to mention, transports and oil tankers will carry a higher renown value than your garden variety maru ). In addition, the cost of all equipment will depend on how many ships of a given class had the equipment installed at a given time. It's a big project (mainly because of the huge numbers of Gato and Balao class boats commissioned), but I think it will be doable.

[Armistead]

I have found mods were like trying to find the perfect woman...there are many thing you want to combine from several into your perfect game.

I have only played RFB a few patrols, before that TMORSRD with some added mods.

RSRD isn't perfect, but wouldn't play the game without it.

Things I don't like about TMO..the dd's are much stronger. I've noticed that easily already. TMO's can go into Godmode. You can be 3000 yards away at periscope depth running silent and here come the dd's right on you. You basically have little time to plan a shot. In reality, most attacks came after you attacked, not before.

I hate the pitted night scope in TMO..hard on the eyes.

I can do without all the special officers regardless of the mod.

I've attacked bungo pete twice..well ran into him,, lost both times. Sent two spreads of three behind each other, turned and let go 3 cuties...nothing got close.
I seldom miss DTT with a spread of 3.

I prefer env mod in TMO..but that's subject to taste.

I like the historical aspects of RFB. I play 100%, no contacts or cams, so the learning curve wasn't that bad. Still wonder about the stad measurements. The other complaints are basically the same as the OP. TMO has some bugs, the hogisland can't be picked up on sonar, ect.

With RSRD I spent so much time chasing lone merchants with my deckgun. Too easy and boring. They should make it much more difficult. One hit with a deckgun that puts a hole in your ship should send you back to port.

Harbor raping for points is OK, but lame....I do it. They need to program some idle dd's among the stationary dd's. Just silly a whole fleet sits there why you spend a day sinking them...at least put some roving dd's near by.

Should allow only one refit for torps and fuel, after that...fuel only...both mods.

I'm finding RFB to have the most upcoming promise, not quite as good as TMO yet, but will see after a few patrols. The dd's are easy or I'm just use to TMO's killers.

FORS is great as far as ships and graphics..wish the other mods would include this work.

I think in a few months both mods, if Duc will keep working will be about as perfect as they can get...can't wait for the next env. mod.

[AVGWarhawk]

With RSRD I spent so much time chasing lone merchants with my deckgun. Too easy and boring. They should make it much more difficult. One hit with a deckgun that puts a hole in your ship should send you back to port.

You will find dueling it out on the surface with a cannon laden merchant will in fact send you home or to the bottom. Machine gun fire will make life very difficult for your crew and sub. This aspect has been worked on extensively. I always look for cannons before I surface in RFB. Super Subs no longer exist.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

You will find dueling it out on the surface with a cannon laden merchant will in fact send you home or to the bottom. Machine gun fire will make life very difficult for your crew and sub. This aspect has been worked on extensively. I always look for cannons before I surface in RFB. Super Subs no longer exist.

Oh, it's much better, but still, no Skipper would stay on the seas with a big gaping hole flooding a compartment...To me one hit on your hull should send you back to port.

TMO is basically the same way. I almost got sunk by a fishin vessel that was shooting back....had nothing but the 40 and 20 and just wanted to sink it. I gave it all I had to out of nowhere...massive damage...

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Should allow only one refit for torps and fuel, after that...fuel only...both mods.

I'd do this if it was possible. Sadly, the coding for submarine tenders cannot be modded.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Armistead

Oh, it's much better, but still, no Skipper would stay on the seas with a big gaping hole flooding a compartment...To me one hit on your hull should send you back to port.

TMO is basically the same way. I almost got sunk by a fishin vessel that was shooting back....had nothing but the 40 and 20 and just wanted to sink it. I gave it all I had to out of nowhere...massive damage...

Yes, it is much better and I would have to say the likelihood of continuing on after a hit in RFB are slim to none. I would say that 9 times out of 10 I was damaged was enough to throw in the towel and go home. Not to mention the crew can not handle a strafing anymore either. Direct hit to the sail and that is all she wrote.

[theluckyone17]

Heh. My last cruise, I surfaced after a target missed my torpedos (not the other way around, mind you). I didn't see any guns from my 'scope, so I figured I was ok. My crew starting plinking away at 'em with the deck gun (under my guidance). We aimed for the waterline, right under the stack, hoping to fill the engine room so she'd stop. Stopped ships make for good targets.

Yeah, well... apparently I aim my fish like I search a target for guns. There were two... one on the port side of the bow, the other on the starboard side of the stern. Of course, I surfaced on the port side of the stern, so they couldn't hit me.

Until I maneuvered within range of the bow gun. It wasn't a deck gun, putting holes in my boat. More of an antiaircraft caliber. I stayed surfaced, mainly 'cause the merchant crew couldn't aim. They fired off wildly, as I continued to pump deck gun rounds into them, while heeling over to stay out of their firing arc.

Needless to say, it didn't work. One of their last attempts went straight into the deck gun position. The tracers were straight into the deck gun view... they looked huge. The target's gun stopped firing, and I breathed a sigh of relief. Then the "man down on the deck!" calls started coming in.

I had moved my entire aft torpedo room crew up to the deck gun. Lost 'em all. All of 'em dead. Six men died because I couldn't bother to dive. The boat didn't incure any other damage, and nobody else was lost.

It made me think... by all rights, that's six letters that I should have to sit down and write, explaining their deaths in a flowery language promoting their service, knowing deep inside that I could've saved 'em simply by diving, instead of trying to maneuver on the surface. Thank God this is just a bunch of electrons streaming around in a couple boxes .

All of the above was running RFB, btw.

[Armistead]

As stated, I think the "great" modders have done all they can do, what little tweaks left will please some and not others...and you know the saying to that.
Oh, how I bet you guys wish you could alter programming files.

I think it would be possible to put some idle dd's sitting among all the stationary harbor targets. I like sinking two BB and two Carriers with all ease, but in the end it gets old. I like the challange of getting into harbors, pass the screening dd's, but once that is done, even though they are within 7000 yards they stay on patrol.

Have played RFB more this weekend and now I'm tore between the two...I can't say which mod I like best, but could see several aspect I would love to combine.

RSRD is by far a must..not saying it's the best mod and works with both supermods, as it has a difference aspect to it, but can't believe someone took the time to do this....a big thank YOU.