You guys still think this can't happen here?

SUBMAN1 · 02-23-09, 09:21 PM

-S

SUBMAN1 · 02-23-09, 09:23 PM

Looks like they called it off:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=89527

But this should scare quite a few of you out there.

-S

SUBMAN1 · 02-23-09, 09:26 PM

Every time I bring this crap up, you guys said it couldn't happen here. I'm paranoid, blah blah blah. Let me tell you this, this wouldn't have been tolerated 20 years ago.

-S

UnderseaLcpl · 02-23-09, 09:36 PM

Is this a SUBMAN-only thread or am I allowed to comment?

SUBMAN1 · 02-23-09, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Is this a SUBMAN-only thread or am I allowed to comment?

Sorry - posted three thoughts in a row. I will try to keep the # of posts to a minimum.

Feel free to comment!

I want to hear peoples comments. I hope it is outrage to the point of calling ones representatives.

-S

PS. All of the Subsim GT threads are of Subman property, so remember that upon engaging in any one of them! (jk Neal!

)

Max2147 · 02-23-09, 10:02 PM

Reminds me of the "Communist uprising" in Mosinee in 1950.

nikimcbee · 02-23-09, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

Is this a SUBMAN-only thread or am I allowed to comment?

oh, just wait til I run wild in here.

UnderseaLcpl · 02-23-09, 10:17 PM

First, I'll admit that this can be viewed as a bit paranoid. There's a good chance that maybe this unit was just looking to get some hands-on training. Maybe the brass was a bit too overenthusiastic, I don't know. It does happen.

However something about it doesn't sit right with me. Besides the dubious training value of such a scenario (arms caches tend to be hidden or buried in Afghanistan and Iraq, and local insurgents are almost impossible to locate using overt searches), there are other factors.

1) A change in search protocol: It's been a while since I've searched a domicile for weapons, but this protocol they are using is quite different. The rule used to be that you would secure the perimeter of the house and demand entry. Meanwhile, the surrounding area would be examined for booby traps and anything suspicious (disturbed dirt, ropes, or anything that could be used as a marker, etc...)
The part where the person being searched is the one who opens everything is the same (might be trapped), but the procedure is a lot more demanding on the searchee (Stand there! Open That! Move This!), but that may just be for the benefit of the volunteers.

2) "Cordon and Knock" is a strategy that was only rarely used in 05-06 (at least in Al Anbar). Ineffective at locating insurgents. It takes too long, they have too much time to hide themselves and anything else. It was only used when we visited a "friendly" community, one that hadn't been searched in a while. For everything else we used something more akin to "Get Intel from an Informer and Raid".

Could be that the Guard hasn't been informed of recent developments, or that TTP has changed. Still, it makes me uneasy.

3) Selection of an Township as a training ground: It could be that the Guard doesn't have access to any of the many MOUT (Military Operations in Urban Terrain) facilities or that they don't have access to "roleplayers" to serve as residents, I don't know.
Nonetheless, this kind of training is woefully inadequate for training in today's thaeaters of operation. There are a lot of small but vital things this training environment doesn't cover including Arabic speech, cultural iconography that is common to fundamentalist Islam, suspicious vehicle identification, speech inflections (indicating nationality), proper ID verification, and cultural "sensitivity" training.
It would seem that this would make this township a poor choice for training for any kind of impending deployment. And that's to say nothing of all the artificial restrictions that must be used when searching an American community.
Could be, like I said, that the brass is too overeager, or maybe to naive to realize the importance of these elements.
Still unsettling somehow.

I'm not prepared to say that I think they may be training for operations in U.S. urban areas, yet. If the military attempts to replicate this excercise with different parameters, I'd be concerned, but as I know nothing of previous attempts at such a thing, I'll just be suspicious for now.

longam · 02-23-09, 10:21 PM

Well I believe some guy standing in front of a Mill with a cool hat....this is

Overboard · 02-23-09, 11:40 PM

Has to be BUNK.

Aramike · 02-23-09, 11:51 PM

I personally think you're reading too much into it. This ultimately is an exercise that DID NOT happen.

Spike88 · 02-24-09, 12:09 AM

I agree with Aramike. Although I could see how this could worry people. But I think if it was really going to be about martial law it would be silenced more, as this does and has set up red flags for certain people.

Spike88 · 02-24-09, 12:17 AM

As a side note, I love how everyone who's really against this bring up god.

August · 02-24-09, 12:19 AM

Military training exercises on civilian property are nothing new. I participated in several of them back in the early 1980's, chasing Special Forces teams around upstate Vermont and New Hampshire.

We've also been running them for years overseas. I can't tell you how many German barns i've slept in and how many farmers fields we tore up.

Spike88 · 02-24-09, 12:26 AM

The whole issue I have with this is people are willing to go to arms against the National Guard. Really the soldiers who would of been partaking in this exercise would just be doing their job.

02-23-09, 09:21 PM	#1
SUBMAN1 Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 11,866 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	You guys still think this can't happen here? -S __________________

02-23-09, 09:23 PM	#2
SUBMAN1 Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 11,866 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Looks like they called it off: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=89527 But this should scare quite a few of you out there. -S __________________

02-23-09, 09:26 PM	#3
SUBMAN1 Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 11,866 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Every time I bring this crap up, you guys said it couldn't happen here. I'm paranoid, blah blah blah. Let me tell you this, this wouldn't have been tolerated 20 years ago. -S __________________

02-23-09, 09:36 PM	#4
UnderseaLcpl Silent Hunter Join Date: May 2008 Location: Storming the beaches! Posts: 4,254 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Is this a SUBMAN-only thread or am I allowed to comment? __________________ I stole this sig from Task Force

02-23-09, 10:17 PM	#8
UnderseaLcpl Silent Hunter Join Date: May 2008 Location: Storming the beaches! Posts: 4,254 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	First, I'll admit that this can be viewed as a bit paranoid. There's a good chance that maybe this unit was just looking to get some hands-on training. Maybe the brass was a bit too overenthusiastic, I don't know. It does happen. However something about it doesn't sit right with me. Besides the dubious training value of such a scenario (arms caches tend to be hidden or buried in Afghanistan and Iraq, and local insurgents are almost impossible to locate using overt searches), there are other factors. 1) A change in search protocol: It's been a while since I've searched a domicile for weapons, but this protocol they are using is quite different. The rule used to be that you would secure the perimeter of the house and demand entry. Meanwhile, the surrounding area would be examined for booby traps and anything suspicious (disturbed dirt, ropes, or anything that could be used as a marker, etc...) The part where the person being searched is the one who opens everything is the same (might be trapped), but the procedure is a lot more demanding on the searchee (Stand there! Open That! Move This!), but that may just be for the benefit of the volunteers. 2) "Cordon and Knock" is a strategy that was only rarely used in 05-06 (at least in Al Anbar). Ineffective at locating insurgents. It takes too long, they have too much time to hide themselves and anything else. It was only used when we visited a "friendly" community, one that hadn't been searched in a while. For everything else we used something more akin to "Get Intel from an Informer and Raid". Could be that the Guard hasn't been informed of recent developments, or that TTP has changed. Still, it makes me uneasy. 3) Selection of an Township as a training ground: It could be that the Guard doesn't have access to any of the many MOUT (Military Operations in Urban Terrain) facilities or that they don't have access to "roleplayers" to serve as residents, I don't know. Nonetheless, this kind of training is woefully inadequate for training in today's thaeaters of operation. There are a lot of small but vital things this training environment doesn't cover including Arabic speech, cultural iconography that is common to fundamentalist Islam, suspicious vehicle identification, speech inflections (indicating nationality), proper ID verification, and cultural "sensitivity" training. It would seem that this would make this township a poor choice for training for any kind of impending deployment. And that's to say nothing of all the artificial restrictions that must be used when searching an American community. Could be, like I said, that the brass is too overeager, or maybe to naive to realize the importance of these elements. Still unsettling somehow. I'm not prepared to say that I think they may be training for operations in U.S. urban areas, yet. If the military attempts to replicate this excercise with different parameters, I'd be concerned, but as I know nothing of previous attempts at such a thing, I'll just be suspicious for now. __________________ I stole this sig from Task Force Last edited by UnderseaLcpl; 02-24-09 at 12:48 AM.

02-23-09, 10:02 PM	#6
Max2147 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 714 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Reminds me of the "Communist uprising" in Mosinee in 1950.

02-23-09, 10:21 PM	#9
longam Admiral Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,014 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	Well I believe some guy standing in front of a Mill with a cool hat....this is

02-23-09, 11:40 PM	#10
Overboard Medic Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 164 Downloads: 124 Uploads: 0	Has to be BUNK.

02-23-09, 11:51 PM	#11
Aramike Ocean Warrior Best of SUBSIM Chairman Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 3,207 Downloads: 59 Uploads: 0	I personally think you're reading too much into it. This ultimately is an exercise that DID NOT happen.

02-24-09, 12:09 AM	#12
Spike88 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 3,052 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	I agree with Aramike. Although I could see how this could worry people. But I think if it was really going to be about martial law it would be silenced more, as this does and has set up red flags for certain people.

02-24-09, 12:17 AM	#13
Spike88 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 3,052 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	As a side note, I love how everyone who's really against this bring up god.

02-24-09, 12:19 AM	#14
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 23,197 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Military training exercises on civilian property are nothing new. I participated in several of them back in the early 1980's, chasing Special Forces teams around upstate Vermont and New Hampshire. We've also been running them for years overseas. I can't tell you how many German barns i've slept in and how many farmers fields we tore up. __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.

02-24-09, 12:26 AM	#15
Spike88 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 3,052 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	The whole issue I have with this is people are willing to go to arms against the National Guard. Really the soldiers who would of been partaking in this exercise would just be doing their job.