Were deck guns really this powerful?

[Otto Heinzmeir]

I never used deck guns on my first 5 missions or so because I thought they were meant as a last resort if you could,'t dive or something. Apologies for my ignorance.
Once I started used them with a qualified gunner my tonnage average per mission more than doubled. From 25 tons to 51 tons per mission in the stock game.

Oddly I don't find the missions as much fun. Because whenever I use 2 torps to sink a ship I feel like I wasted the torps when I probably could have sunk it with 12 rounds of HE. I was surprised when I was able to sink a C2 with 10 to 12 rounds. I sunk a small merchant with 1 round. Possible bug perhaps. I hit it once in its a** and it went down in like 10 seconds.

Most of my strategy changed once I started using guns. Instead of lining up 500 to 700m off the targets track for a Fast 90, instead I line up as close to his track as I can figure. Staying submerged and pointing so as soon as he passed I can surface and angle a bit off to one side or the other. I have my gunner finish him in maybe 6-9 rounds for small merchant and 12-24 for a C2.

This can't be a historical type of attack. Plus the tonnage totals must be too high as well per mission compared to history and its just too dam easy to be fun. Yet I have problems not using them either because why are they there if not to be used.

For one thing they just seem to have too many rounds. I find myself asking why an early U -boot would carry torps at all if guns were this effective. Why not forgo the torps to make more room for HE rounds?

Then in GWX I was at first delighted that you could use guns in seas that were not calm, so I figured they would be less effective because of the roll of the sub in waves. Will for firing it myself it is less effective. But the gun crew is deadly again at 500 meters.

This really makes me want to use a TypeII for the entire war only I can't stand only having 5 torps after awhile.

Is this how effective deck guns were in which case I'll just use as they are but if they are over powered is there a cfg file that can be tweaked to tone down the damage or limit the rounds?

Post is a bit longer than I thought

[casey.phobic]

I found the website you are looking for:

http://www.uboataces.com/weapon-deck-gun.shtml


Personally, I use the deck gun in every instance that I can. Gun shells are a lot cheaper than torpedoes and I think it's a lot of fun to dart around, circling and firing. The AI crewed deck gun IS pretty accurate, but I've found that I am usually more accurate, especially when moving at strange angles. I haven't put a qualified gunner on station yet, though.

I try to save my torpedoes for when silence and surprise are called for, or when I must take out two or more targets at once.

[Robert Fulton]

Actual patrol logs confirm that deck guns were used to sink ships to save torpedoes or when torpedoes were unavailable.

Here for example is the log of the 7th patrol of U-123. Skipper Hardegen affectionately refers to it as using his artillery.

[GREY WOLF 3]

Originally Posted by Robert Fulton

Actual patrol logs confirm that deck guns were used to sink ships to save torpedoes or when torpedoes were unavailable.

Here for example is the log of the 7th patrol of U-123. Skipper Hardegen affectionately refers to it as using his artillery.

NICE READING thanks for the link

[Otto Heinzmeir]

Thanks for the replies. That Captain's log is really helpful. He used guns on a steamer as he had no torpedo ready. Sounds like he hit it hard with just 6 rounds. So guns were effective. But for 2 other ships in the area he was going back to torpedoes, only they were too fast and daylight was approaching.

My impression from reading his entire log is that guns were used mostly for mop up. His log is from late 1941 to early 1942 and he was operating off the U.S. coast. I noticed he made a number of references of trying to attack from range so he would have time to evade destroyers. Good stuff.

So before the escorts get armed Guns it is I guess Though I think I will forgo the gunner qualification. Thanks to the uboat aces site I learned how difficult it was to man a gun on deck. With rounds being passed up from below and the gunner crew having to be tied on a line so as not to get swept overboard.

[casey.phobic]

here's some specs on the 8.8cm naval gun:

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_88mm-45_skc35.htm

a 20 pound projectile moving at 2,297 fps is going to do some serious damage. I have a .30-06 that travels about that fast at 200 yards and anything it hits is freakin' mince meat..and you measure its weight in grains!

factor in the HE round, and you've got a hell of a punch for such a little boat. a few hits at or below the waterline and you're history. I guess you could sort of look at he u-boat as a naval sniper in this role. Laying in wait, closing in fast and furious!

[mookiemookie]

One interesting bit from Hardegen's patrol log dated 1/22/42:

Rounded the Bermudas on a southerly course. There was a buoy with a flashing light on the Plantagenet Bank. Fired star shells twice in the direction of Hamilton harbor which illuminated the whole area as bright as day.

I suppose U-boats really did carry them.

[Sailor Steve]

@ Otto Heinzmeir: No, sinking a C2 with 12 rounds is not realistic. Are you playing the stock game? All the supermods take this into account.

Does Hardegen mention how many rounds it took to sink those ships?

The starshell reference is interesting, especially in light of the recent thread about the captured u-boat that says they didn't have any.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The starshell reference is interesting, especially in light of the recent thread about the captured u-boat that says they didn't have any.

perhaps some did and some didnt.

maybe it was one of those things that was up to the particular commander to decide.

[Heibges]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

@ Otto Heinzmeir: No, sinking a C2 with 12 rounds is not realistic. Are you playing the stock game? All the supermods take this into account.

Does Hardegen mention how many rounds it took to sink those ships?

The starshell reference is interesting, especially in light of the recent thread about the captured u-boat that says they didn't have any.

I believe SailorSteve is correct. Using deckguns was the exception rather than the rule.

There were some great debates on this forum over the historical use of the deckgun.

I would say there are very limited situations and time periods where the deckgun would be used "realistically".

But it is a game, so folks should play the way they want to.

There is a chapter on "The Gunnery Raid" in the Uboat Commanders Handbook.

[Weiss Pinguin]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

perhaps some did and some didnt.

maybe it was one of those things that was up to the particular commander to decide.

Perhaps the captured U-boat had also simply expended all of its starshells? I really don't care much about SS rounds either way, just a thought.

[Otto Heinzmeir]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

@ Otto Heinzmeir: No, sinking a C2 with 12 rounds is not realistic. Are you playing the stock game? All the supermods take this into account.

Does Hardegen mention how many rounds it took to sink those ships?

The starshell reference is interesting, especially in light of the recent thread about the captured u-boat that says they didn't have any.

Here is one of Hardegen's encounters ..... no torpedo, but I still have a deck gun. On battle stations for artillery attack, deck gun ready! I position myself directly in his wake. The other 4 steamers sufficiently away (distance 2000 m). I want to get closer from astern and ambush him when passing. 10.34 Open fire! Everything works fantastically, at least 6 hits aft in the engine room. Tanker stops and burns. Now I recognize that he is even bigger, about 4000 grt. He has a slight list to port and because he is on fire I believe he has enough for now and decide to attack the other steamers with torpedoes. Try to overtake a freighter, 6000 grt, but his speed is14-15 knots and I barely get ahead. Another one approaches me head-on on a course to the north. I’m changing target and try to get closer, but this one is also too fast and because the day is dawning soon I will not be able to fire on him before dawn. But I have others to choose from. My tanker reports by a radio message that he is still burning after being attacked by a U-boat with artillery and the “I. Naval Station” should be notified. It was the MALAY (8207 grt). I never would have guessed that he is so big. Well, then my last torpedo should be his coup de grace. First another shot on a freighter of 5000 grt, which is running towards me at 9 knots and I am ahead. One diesel engine broke down due to a rupture of the cooling water tube, so I continue with the other engine on maximum speed. 12.00 CA 7938
Fired torpedo. Distance 450 m, target angle 90°, enemy speed 9 knots. Hit aft of funnel and he breaks in two. He has had enough. Water depth 10 m
.........so he hurt it real bad with 6 shots up close and finished with torp.

Here is another excert from Hardegen on the same mission with not as good results using a gun, its a bit graphic as well................ Deck gun ready and opened fire. The first shots hit the stern, then one each under the bridge and in the engine room. Steamer mans the gun and fires. The firing pin of our MG C30 is broken, so we fired with the deck gun at his gun. Several hits underneath, but he continues to fire until a direct hit struck the pivot. Gun crew out of action, the barrel can’t be moved anymore. We received 5 hits, which did not penetrate the pressure hull. Because they hit very low, I assume that they fell short, burst on the surface and only the splinters hit our hull. Some shots passed between conning tower and deck gun, one could hear them whistling past. Ship is releasing steam, bridge is burning and the crew is abandoning ship in the lifeboats. Strangely they did not release the two big rafts that are intact on great slipways over the foremost and rearmost hatches. Perhaps because they were on the side we fired on. Replaced the firing pin of the 20 mm AA gun. We fire a single shot into the scenery to test the weapon. This shot exploded in the barrel, apparently due to a defect in manufacture of the round. Premature detonation. Special leader Art.Mt. Toelle is unfortunately hit by shrapnel on the back of his head and fell to the deck bleeding badly. MtrOGfr. Vonderschen has a 5 cm flesh wound on the left thigh, which is harmless. Not the fault of anyone. Vonderschen belonged to the AA gun crew, Toelle was standing near the aft periscope taking photos of the burning steamer. We were firing to right aft. Toelle lost very much blood and had to vomit several times


For my own game experience, I just started a GWX3.0 mod but havn't but only used 4 rounds with the deck gun to finish a ship that took two fish. All my experience with sinking ships solely via the deck gun was in the stock game. And the number of shells to sink varied some. I had always targeted the waterline and some C2's did hold up for 24+ shells. My personnal way I like to play is to at least put 1 torp in a ship first. Reserve the guns for finishing. But I think I may may 1 exception per mission for a ship that is in the 2 ton or less range. I just don't like half my tonnage being attributed to guns. SO looking forward to getting further into GWX and see how it goes. Maybe I won't have to hold back on the deck gun use at all. HAve to see.

[BasilY]

Almost through out WWI and early in WW2, a single deck gun shot may not sink a ship, but it is often enough to convince an unescorted merchant to abandon the fight.

In SH3, however, those merchants sailors has absolutely no regard for their own personal safety. (Neither does a lot of SH3 players...)

you can sink a ship if you hit it in one shot in the game but in real life the sailors would have used the hatches to stop flooding.

i think they should make an opptional mod that gives star shells but decreases HE rounds or something.

[coronas]

Spanish Steam San Carlos was a 223 tons vessel:

"At 19.50 hours on 16 Dec, 1940, U-37 missed the San Carlos with one torpedo off Cape Juby and decided to attack the vessel at 20.00 hours from a distance of 800 metres with the deck gun and the 37mm AA gun, but the deck gun broke down after 21 shots. The 15 crew members and 13 passengers abandoned ship in two lifeboats, but one man was lost. The Germans rowed in a dinghi to the ship and placed scuttling charges on the vessel that later sank the ship. Doing so they noticed that the fired rounds had not been able to penetrate the 20cm strong wooden hull of the ship. "


From: http://www.uboat.net/allies/merchants/722.html