manual targeting problems are giving me inaccurate firing solutions

I'm goin' down · 11-06-08, 06:13 PM

I am having a manual targeting problem. I have been trying out manual targeting for the past couple of days. I have 3 contacts out of about 20 shots.

First set of questions. 1. When I set up angle on the bow by adjusting the target ship's position on the stadimeter, I am estimating the angle by trying to match the target's angle as seen through the periscope. Is there a better way? 2. Are the numbers on the angle of the bow dial of any use, and if so, how do I use them? 3. Should I measure angle on the bow with a compass or protractor and use that calculation? I can tell my firing solution is not correct because on the attack map the white line running from the white "x" is not following the target's course but is pointed in some other direction. Werner Sobe makes it clear that the line should follow the target's course in a good firing solution.

Second set of questions. When I try to measure the height of the target's mast at long range, it is usually inaccurate. At medium range the ship is bobbing in the ocean and it it tough to get an accurate reading because I see a shadow that gives me a duplicate image of the target. At close range it is much easier, but that means I am firing soon after taking the reading, plus I have to scrambe to adjust angle on the bow again to take a shot. 4. Why can't I just enter the mast height once I identify the ship? 5. What am I doing wrong?

Update: I just missed two shots at long range because the distance input was incorrect. But I saved three torpedos and fired when it was closer, and all three hit. I was so busy hiding from destroyers that I did not have time to see it go under.

Captain Dave · 11-06-08, 09:40 PM

You sound like a candidate for the Dick O'Kane method of manual targeting.
Get it here:http://files.filefront.com/Dick+OKan.../fileinfo.html

I'm goin' down · 11-07-08, 03:42 AM

Why did Rockin Robbins pull the range lever all the way to the right in the video? Is it because the target was so far away? If so, what do you do when the target is close?

Arclight · 11-07-08, 06:58 AM

Basically, with that method range is irrelevant (not entirely true, but close enough). Doesn't matter if the target is close or far away, same drill.

GOZO · 11-07-08, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arclight

Basically, with that method range is irrelevant (not entirely true, but close enough). Doesn't matter if the target is close or far away, same drill.

True indeed. The aiming tools of the fleetboat allow much "dynamics" in their use.

Dont forget the position keeper.

A hint:

Start with having "map contacts" on and compare your solution with the real situation.

Happy hunting.

/OB

ReallyDedPoet · 11-07-08, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GOZO

A hint:

Start with having "map contacts" on and compare your solution with the real situation.

This alone is a big help.

Also, if you are incorrect in identifying your target with the Rec. Manual, this throws things way off as well.

Stick with it and you'll catch on

RDP

Rockin Robbins · 11-07-08, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Why did Rockin Robbins pull the range lever all the way to the right in the video? Is it because the target was so far away? If so, what do you do when the target is close?

When you pull the plastic triangle all the way down, you are manually setting the range at about 1425 yards. This will guarantee you a hit on any target from 700 to 2500 yards or so at a small gyro angle. If you leave the range at zero, you are nowhere near as accurate because something I can't explain is going on in the TDC to make the torpedoes' tracks go on a smaller gyro angle than you would expect. Even that anomaly probably won't make any difference under 1500 yards. But pulling the triangle down is making your solution just a little bit more accurate.

The Position Keeper Explained with apologies to PETA (on second thought, mail those idiots the dead duck.)
With the Dick O'Kane procedure, leave the PK off, as with all constant bearing shooting methods. To make it clear, if you were shooting innocent little duckies with a shotgun, there are two ways you can do it.

First you can sweep the gun to follow the bird and when you're satisfied with the lead angle you can pull the trigger at any time to kill the cute birdie. That is what the PK does.

Secondly, you can aim at a point ahead of the bird, holding the gun steady, and time the shot for when the duckie is at the precise position where the gun aimed at that point will hit the bird. This is how Dick O'Kane and John P Cromwell work with the PK off.

Both methods properly executed give your dog some exercise and extinguish the life of the innocent aquatic aviary creature.

GOZO · 11-07-08, 09:30 AM

Quote:

First you can sweep the gun to follow the bird and when you're satisfied with the lead angle you can pull the trigger at any time to kill the cute birdie. That is what the PK does.

Secondly, you can aim at a point ahead of the bird, holding the gun steady, and time the shot for when the duckie is at the precise position where the gun aimed at that point will hit the bird. This is how Dick O'Kane and John P Cromwell work with the PK off.

Very good explanation indeed with the latter example being the way we aim with a germanU-boot (ie no PK).

Also I was not aware of the "triangle" -trick. Must test tonight

Cheers and thanks for the update.

/OB

TGIF!!!!!!!

Munchausen · 11-07-08, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

If you leave the range at zero, you are nowhere near as accurate because something I can't explain is going on in the TDC to make the torpedoes' tracks go on a smaller gyro angle than you would expect.

It might have something to do with what's posted here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=144057

Quote:

Instead of having to point the bow or stern nest on the intended torpedo running course, the torpedo actually left the tube, ran a preset distance and enabled, then under its own gyro control, turned to its running course. It proceeded on that course until it either hit the target or ran out of fuel and sank.

Thus, the "actual" run consisted of two straight segments connected by an arc formed by the turning radius of the torpedo.

In tests, both the attack map display and the TDC dials began to go nuts as the distance to target approached zero. It's possible that, once inside 200 yards (where the "running course" no longer exists), the TDC can no longer calculate the proper solution. Instead, the computer is stuck with only one (of the two) straight segments ... making it impossible to correctly connect them with an arc.

Loud_Silence · 11-07-08, 03:31 PM

What mods is he using in that video?

Rockin Robbins · 11-07-08, 05:41 PM

What mods is who using in what video? Mine or Werner's?

I'd have to check the video now to recall in either case.:rotfl:

Loud_Silence · 11-08-08, 06:15 AM

Im specially interested in that compass around the sub in the map

Rockin Robbins · 11-08-08, 06:51 AM

Now THAT I can answer. In WernerSobe's and my first video, that was patch 1.2 and we were using the 360º Bearing Plotter mod. Now I don't use that because the little boy has grown up into the 3000 Yard/Meter Bearing Plotter for SH4UBM. It is twice the diameter of the one in the videos and rescales itself into meters for U-Boats. I wouldn't be caught dead using meters on submarines and prefer to use native measurements on U-Boats.

It works with all mods without interfering with anything or harming any innocent animals.

I'm goin' down · 11-08-08, 08:00 AM

[First you can sweep the gun to follow the bird and when you're satisfied with the lead angle you can pull the trigger at any time to kill the cute birdie. That is what the PK does.

Secondly, you can aim at a point ahead of the bird, holding the gun steady, and time the shot for when the duckie is at the precise position where the gun aimed at that point will hit the bird. This is how Dick O'Kane and John P Cromwell work with the PK off.]

First, let's talk ducks. If you have never seen a waterfowl migration, you are missing something. I was at the Delevan refuge near Willows, CA years ago in the middle of the winter migration (refuuge capacity is 7 million birds!) and saw millions of birds on the ground, in the air --everywhere. They made so much noise you could not hear blasts from the horn on my car. It was as if every airplane in the world was landing at, or flying over, O'Hare at the same time.

I have seen the weather change so quickly that the birds thought night was falling in mid afternoon and began landing. Once in the midst of a snowstorm that followed sudden rain, sleet and hail storm geese were at 20 -25 yards altitude, ducks at 15, and Swans (as big as B-52s) at 10. I was so shocked I forgot that I was carrying a shotgun. (Swans are federally protected, but must be as big as Thankgiving turkeys.)

Leading with a shotgun is a good idea, and so is sweeping the gun. But that will not work with a blue or green winged teal, the comedians of the duck family. They zig zag (i.e. change course), do loop to loops, and when you are scanning the sky for birds they will cartwheel into a pond at 3 or 4 feet, landing 5 feet from your blind and will start dunking and bathing as if it is summer. They are tiny compared to a fat mallard, and are funnier than hell when darting to and fro. When their wings are spread they display and set of blue or get feathers mid wing, hence their names. Not as pretty as the wood duck, but they change direction as fast and often as a destroyer changes course.

p.s. I am in the midst of manual targeting hell. The war department is going to stop supplying me with boats and start chargng for torpedos. My best moment was when I caught a destroyer sleeping. It did not move for 20 minutes. Neither did my boat until I slowly came to periscope depth and fired two shots at zero degrees. The destroyer awoke, but it was too late. It moved less than a boat length and the first torpedo sunk it. Most of the time though, my periscope is spotted, and my boat is depth charged to "death."

When I submerge when setting up for a shot, I do not think my radar continues to track the target on the attack map. I am running the standard game with only the 3,000 yard compass mod. If radar does not work when I am at periscope depth then using the Dick O'Kane method becomes difficult and hazardous to a boat's health as there is a good chance it will be spotted when checking the bearing of the target, and destroyers are usually on it quickly, while the merchants begin evasive manuevers.
Any suggestions? Maaybe I have this wrong, but I think this is what is happening.

Loud_Silence · 11-08-08, 09:05 AM

The mark-3 minutes-mark is very useful to get the speed, and using the protractor in the map is all i need to get AoB (in expense of some realism), but finding the range is a real pain in the ass with the stadimeter. I sank a lone tanker finding its range with the sonar, and i only needed the periscope for the first five minutes. After that i could fire just by using the PK. But using sonar for getting range against a convoy is just like i surfaced and started yelling "hey japanese boats its me! Im here! I want to sink you!"

11-06-08, 06:13 PM	#1
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	manual targeting problems are giving me inaccurate firing solutions I am having a manual targeting problem. I have been trying out manual targeting for the past couple of days. I have 3 contacts out of about 20 shots. First set of questions. 1. When I set up angle on the bow by adjusting the target ship's position on the stadimeter, I am estimating the angle by trying to match the target's angle as seen through the periscope. Is there a better way? 2. Are the numbers on the angle of the bow dial of any use, and if so, how do I use them? 3. Should I measure angle on the bow with a compass or protractor and use that calculation? I can tell my firing solution is not correct because on the attack map the white line running from the white "x" is not following the target's course but is pointed in some other direction. Werner Sobe makes it clear that the line should follow the target's course in a good firing solution. Second set of questions. When I try to measure the height of the target's mast at long range, it is usually inaccurate. At medium range the ship is bobbing in the ocean and it it tough to get an accurate reading because I see a shadow that gives me a duplicate image of the target. At close range it is much easier, but that means I am firing soon after taking the reading, plus I have to scrambe to adjust angle on the bow again to take a shot. 4. Why can't I just enter the mast height once I identify the ship? 5. What am I doing wrong? Update: I just missed two shots at long range because the distance input was incorrect. But I saved three torpedos and fired when it was closer, and all three hit. I was so busy hiding from destroyers that I did not have time to see it go under. Last edited by I'm goin' down; 11-06-08 at 08:46 PM.

11-07-08, 03:42 AM	#3
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	still have questions Why did Rockin Robbins pull the range lever all the way to the right in the video? Is it because the target was so far away? If so, what do you do when the target is close?

11-07-08, 06:58 AM	#4
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	Basically, with that method range is irrelevant (not entirely true, but close enough). Doesn't matter if the target is close or far away, same drill. __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

11-07-08, 05:41 PM	#11
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	What mods is who using in what video? Mine or Werner's? I'd have to check the video now to recall in either case.:rotfl: __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS Last edited by Rockin Robbins; 11-07-08 at 05:43 PM.

11-08-08, 06:51 AM	#13
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	Now THAT I can answer. In WernerSobe's and my first video, that was patch 1.2 and we were using the 360º Bearing Plotter mod. Now I don't use that because the little boy has grown up into the 3000 Yard/Meter Bearing Plotter for SH4UBM. It is twice the diameter of the one in the videos and rescales itself into meters for U-Boats. I wouldn't be caught dead using meters on submarines and prefer to use native measurements on U-Boats. It works with all mods without interfering with anything or harming any innocent animals. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

11-06-08, 09:40 PM	#2
Captain Dave Officer Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Herriman, Utah Posts: 247 Downloads: 398 Uploads: 3	You sound like a candidate for the Dick O'Kane method of manual targeting. Get it here:http://files.filefront.com/Dick+OKan.../fileinfo.html

11-07-08, 03:31 PM	#10
Loud_Silence Planesman Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 193 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	What mods is he using in that video?

11-08-08, 06:15 AM	#12
Loud_Silence Planesman Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 193 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Im specially interested in that compass around the sub in the map

11-08-08, 08:00 AM	#14
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	We are talkin' ducks... (follow up question in the last paragrahp) [First you can sweep the gun to follow the bird and when you're satisfied with the lead angle you can pull the trigger at any time to kill the cute birdie. That is what the PK does. Secondly, you can aim at a point ahead of the bird, holding the gun steady, and time the shot for when the duckie is at the precise position where the gun aimed at that point will hit the bird. This is how Dick O'Kane and John P Cromwell work with the PK off.] First, let's talk ducks. If you have never seen a waterfowl migration, you are missing something. I was at the Delevan refuge near Willows, CA years ago in the middle of the winter migration (refuuge capacity is 7 million birds!) and saw millions of birds on the ground, in the air --everywhere. They made so much noise you could not hear blasts from the horn on my car. It was as if every airplane in the world was landing at, or flying over, O'Hare at the same time. I have seen the weather change so quickly that the birds thought night was falling in mid afternoon and began landing. Once in the midst of a snowstorm that followed sudden rain, sleet and hail storm geese were at 20 -25 yards altitude, ducks at 15, and Swans (as big as B-52s) at 10. I was so shocked I forgot that I was carrying a shotgun. (Swans are federally protected, but must be as big as Thankgiving turkeys.) Leading with a shotgun is a good idea, and so is sweeping the gun. But that will not work with a blue or green winged teal, the comedians of the duck family. They zig zag (i.e. change course), do loop to loops, and when you are scanning the sky for birds they will cartwheel into a pond at 3 or 4 feet, landing 5 feet from your blind and will start dunking and bathing as if it is summer. They are tiny compared to a fat mallard, and are funnier than hell when darting to and fro. When their wings are spread they display and set of blue or get feathers mid wing, hence their names. Not as pretty as the wood duck, but they change direction as fast and often as a destroyer changes course. p.s. I am in the midst of manual targeting hell. The war department is going to stop supplying me with boats and start chargng for torpedos. My best moment was when I caught a destroyer sleeping. It did not move for 20 minutes. Neither did my boat until I slowly came to periscope depth and fired two shots at zero degrees. The destroyer awoke, but it was too late. It moved less than a boat length and the first torpedo sunk it. Most of the time though, my periscope is spotted, and my boat is depth charged to "death." When I submerge when setting up for a shot, I do not think my radar continues to track the target on the attack map. I am running the standard game with only the 3,000 yard compass mod. If radar does not work when I am at periscope depth then using the Dick O'Kane method becomes difficult and hazardous to a boat's health as there is a good chance it will be spotted when checking the bearing of the target, and destroyers are usually on it quickly, while the merchants begin evasive manuevers. Any suggestions? Maaybe I have this wrong, but I think this is what is happening. Last edited by I'm goin' down; 11-08-08 at 08:03 AM.

11-08-08, 09:05 AM	#15
Loud_Silence Planesman Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 193 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The mark-3 minutes-mark is very useful to get the speed, and using the protractor in the map is all i need to get AoB (in expense of some realism), but finding the range is a real pain in the ass with the stadimeter. I sank a lone tanker finding its range with the sonar, and i only needed the periscope for the first five minutes. After that i could fire just by using the PK. But using sonar for getting range against a convoy is just like i surfaced and started yelling "hey japanese boats its me! Im here! I want to sink you!"