What's the biggest failure of the uboat service?

BasilY · 11-03-08, 12:44 AM

Better torpedoes early on could have made a real difference. The Enigma breach happened after the balance of the fight has already turned.

PhantomLord · 11-03-08, 03:27 AM

Biggest fail was to split the boats instead of pushing the trigger in the atlantic. . Guard service around norway, more and more boats into the med...

Murr44 · 11-03-08, 04:03 AM

They made a very serious error in not copying the Long Lance torpedo. The Japanese gave them several examples as part of a technological exchange but from what I've read the Germans never bothered to examine them.

CCIP · 11-03-08, 04:22 AM

Well, in all fairness, I think the thing that really failed them is less their decisions and more the fact that the service was not adequately prepared and invested into before the war started. The only way I see things going differently is if they started with Doenitz's planned 300 boats, not 57.

GOZO · 11-03-08, 04:48 AM

Beleiving they really could pull it off regarding the opposition faced......

/OB

ozzysoldier · 11-03-08, 06:20 AM

hitler in charge of the u-boat arms

Jimbuna · 11-03-08, 06:39 AM

Fail to discover/suspect a breach of the enigma code.

11-03-08, 06:44 AM

Fail to introduce electric Boats earlier (XXI/XXIII).

U-46 Commander · 11-03-08, 12:11 PM

Not producing more U-boats. They(Hitler) Wanted Battleships, not subs.

Hawk U-375 · 11-03-08, 12:22 PM

I say Enigma/ Failure to produce more U-Boats before the War.

ReallyDedPoet · 11-03-08, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

Well, in all fairness, I think the thing that really failed them is less their decisions and more the fact that the service was not adequately prepared and invested into before the war started. The only way I see things going differently is if they started with Doenitz's planned 300 boats, not 57.

Bang on with this one

RDP

gutted · 11-03-08, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-46 Commander

Not producing more U-boats. They(Hitler) Wanted Battleships, not subs.

yup. they spent too much effort building things they were too scared to use for fear of losing them.

Murr44 · 11-03-08, 02:42 PM

It was Raeder & the other admirals (apart from Doenitz) who were wedded to the big ship (battleship) navy idea. They were still thinking in terms of the WWI era navy where control of the oceans would be decided in massive fleet engagements like Jutland. Hitler actually hated the sea (one of his many weird phobias) & had very little interest in the KM. Doenitz erred in his insistance on regular radio contact & his refusal to believe that Enigma had been compromised. There were some on his staff who suspected that the code had been broken but they were ignored.

Puster Bill · 11-03-08, 02:51 PM

I voted for Fail to discover/suspect a breach of the enigma code, but they actually *DID* suspect this.

Doenitz actually had the security of it investigated several times, and logged his suspicions in the BdU KTB, most notably after the Tarafal Bay incident:

"It is more likely that our cypher material is compromised or that there has been a breach of security. It appears improbable that an English submarine would be in such an isolated area by accident. The Naval War Staff is therefore taking the necessary steps to safeguard cypher material."
http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB30297.htm

I've often wanted the 'game' what would happen if you take the ability to know what the u-boats were doing away from the Allies. My sense is that it would have made life tougher for the carrier based Hunter/Killer groups, and would have prevented a number of losses (U-505, for example), but the submarine is an offensive weapon, and the only way to use them effectively is to close with the enemy, ie., attack convoys, and centimetric radar and advanced sonar and weapons like FIDO and Hedgehog would have still resulted in high losses (just not *AS* high).

Erich dem Roten · 11-03-08, 03:19 PM

You know, I really want to pick every option. I don't think it was (and it rarely ever is) one single thing that lost the battle for the Atlantic.

I suppose I'll make my own entry: Failure to keep abreast of and counter allied ASW tech. A sub can only do so much if it is detected before it can attack or the captain knows attacking means suicide. This would include getting those XXI's out faster, better anti-sonar coatings and decoys, more time invested in torpedo technology...and on and on.....

...don't waste the Luftwaffe on silly targets with little military bearing, that way maybe you'd still have something resembling an airforce to check the airborne ASW patrols out of England...introduce wolfpacks earlier and teach better coordination between sub captains in training...allow captains to evade planes rather than sacrifice themselves and their boats and crews...

View Poll Results: What's the biggest mistake?
Fail to test the torpedoes thoroughly before the war.	6	6.74%
Fail to institute un-restricted warfare from the get go.	3	3.37%
Fail to introduce electric Boats earlier (XXI/XXIII)	17	19.10%
Fail to co-operate better with the surface fleet and Luftwaffe	13	14.61%
Fail to discover/suspect a breach of the enigma code	27	30.34%
Fail to institute radio silence	5	5.62%
Continual insistance that uboat should fight aircraft.	0	0%
Fail to copy the "longlance" from Japan (longer, faster, no bubble)	3	3.37%
Continue sending more boats after 1944 when prospects were dim.	3	3.37%
Other	12	13.48%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

11-03-08, 12:44 AM	#1
BasilY Weps Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 359 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	What's the biggest failure of the uboat service? Better torpedoes early on could have made a real difference. The Enigma breach happened after the balance of the fight has already turned.

11-03-08, 03:27 AM	#2
PhantomLord XO Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 408 Downloads: 124 Uploads: 0	Biggest fail was to split the boats instead of pushing the trigger in the atlantic. . Guard service around norway, more and more boats into the med... __________________ ~^~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left. ~^~ Last edited by PhantomLord; 11-03-08 at 03:27 AM.

11-03-08, 04:22 AM	#4
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Well, in all fairness, I think the thing that really failed them is less their decisions and more the fact that the service was not adequately prepared and invested into before the war started. The only way I see things going differently is if they started with Doenitz's planned 300 boats, not 57. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) Last edited by CCIP; 11-03-08 at 04:22 AM.

11-03-08, 04:48 AM	#5
GOZO Commander Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Linkoping, Sweden Posts: 479 Downloads: 176 Uploads: 0	Beleiving they really could pull it off regarding the opposition faced...... /OB __________________ SHIV:TMo 2.5, RSRD, SCAF OLC, Ralle's modpack SHIV: WDAD, Med Campaign SHIII: GWX3 GOLD, OLCII Gold, ACM-reloaded interface mod, SHIIIcmndr 3.2, Full Realism/DiD SHIII: LSH3 2015 Cold Waters with all bells and whistles Finally SHV but still unmodded and still a noob....

11-03-08, 04:03 AM	#3
Murr44 Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 913 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	They made a very serious error in not copying the Long Lance torpedo. The Japanese gave them several examples as part of a technological exchange but from what I've read the Germans never bothered to examine them.

11-03-08, 06:20 AM	#6
ozzysoldier Bosun Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 64 Downloads: 139 Uploads: 0	hitler in charge of the u-boat arms

11-03-08, 06:39 AM	#7
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,473 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Fail to discover/suspect a breach of the enigma code. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

11-03-08, 06:44 AM	#8
Contact Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Fail to introduce electric Boats earlier (XXI/XXIII).

11-03-08, 12:11 PM	#9
U-46 Commander Lieutenant Join Date: May 2008 Location: The absolutely most exciting state!! Iowa! Posts: 251 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 0	Not producing more U-boats. They(Hitler) Wanted Battleships, not subs. __________________ "Loved By Few, Hated By Many, Respected By All."-The U-boats.

11-03-08, 12:22 PM	#10
Hawk U-375 Engineer Join Date: May 2003 Location: Bottom of New York Harbor Posts: 203 Downloads: 518 Uploads: 0	I say Enigma/ Failure to produce more U-Boats before the War.

11-03-08, 02:42 PM	#13
Murr44 Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 913 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	It was Raeder & the other admirals (apart from Doenitz) who were wedded to the big ship (battleship) navy idea. They were still thinking in terms of the WWI era navy where control of the oceans would be decided in massive fleet engagements like Jutland. Hitler actually hated the sea (one of his many weird phobias) & had very little interest in the KM. Doenitz erred in his insistance on regular radio contact & his refusal to believe that Enigma had been compromised. There were some on his staff who suspected that the code had been broken but they were ignored. Last edited by Murr44; 11-03-08 at 02:43 PM.

11-03-08, 02:51 PM	#14
Puster Bill Grey Wolf Join Date: May 2006 Location: BA8758, or FN33eh for my fellow hams. Posts: 833 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I voted for Fail to discover/suspect a breach of the enigma code, but they actually DID suspect this. Doenitz actually had the security of it investigated several times, and logged his suspicions in the BdU KTB, most notably after the Tarafal Bay incident: "It is more likely that our cypher material is compromised or that there has been a breach of security. It appears improbable that an English submarine would be in such an isolated area by accident. The Naval War Staff is therefore taking the necessary steps to safeguard cypher material." http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB30297.htm I've often wanted the 'game' what would happen if you take the ability to know what the u-boats were doing away from the Allies. My sense is that it would have made life tougher for the carrier based Hunter/Killer groups, and would have prevented a number of losses (U-505, for example), but the submarine is an offensive weapon, and the only way to use them effectively is to close with the enemy, ie., attack convoys, and centimetric radar and advanced sonar and weapons like FIDO and Hedgehog would have still resulted in high losses (just not AS high). __________________ The U-Boat Commander of Love

11-03-08, 03:19 PM	#15
Erich dem Roten Electrician's Mate Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Connecticut Posts: 134 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	You know, I really want to pick every option. I don't think it was (and it rarely ever is) one single thing that lost the battle for the Atlantic. I suppose I'll make my own entry: Failure to keep abreast of and counter allied ASW tech. A sub can only do so much if it is detected before it can attack or the captain knows attacking means suicide. This would include getting those XXI's out faster, better anti-sonar coatings and decoys, more time invested in torpedo technology...and on and on..... ...don't waste the Luftwaffe on silly targets with little military bearing, that way maybe you'd still have something resembling an airforce to check the airborne ASW patrols out of England...introduce wolfpacks earlier and teach better coordination between sub captains in training...allow captains to evade planes rather than sacrifice themselves and their boats and crews... __________________