Do you always report a convoy?

[ncorpuz34]

I start a new career in an S-boat early in the war (no radar) and a couple of days into the patrol, at about 0200 I come off TC as my SO reports multiple contacts. On my binocs I spot 3 destroyers doing a sweep towards my area and the reflections of at least 6 more bigger ships more off into the horizon. Looks like something big! Am I detected? Im not sure, the destroyers aren't "steaming towards my location" so I assume not. I make a radio report of the contact back to base and wait for the response. I am ordered to "Sink IJN Warships" and my mission objects are updated.

Hmm...easier said than done.

So I submerge and get on the sonar. I make a few pings on which in the end turn out to be a convoy of about 6 merchant ships, 3 big passenger liners, 1 cruiser and 6 DDs. The front 3 DDs are now in my area with spots lights but dont know my exact location. Since no surface radar, and my crew is having a hard time maintaining a visual, I had to use active sonar to calculate a heading and range of the convoy. I turns out im in a bad position to attack and as half the convoy has already passed me and is about 5000 yrds away. I sneak past the 3 DDs to get within range. Forced to pass up the juicy 10k ton passenger liners, I turn my attention towards the cruiser and notice through the periscope that the convoy is already on alert and is doing zig-zags. I usually use the O' kane or Cromwell method but since I had no early warning about the convoy, I have to use the good ol TDC. I am forced to get contact range readings using active sonar due to a bug in the new RFB 1.52 not being able to hold a lock on a ship (inhibiting the stadimeter). But at this point didnt matter since the convoy is already doing evasive manuevers. I try to get the best solutions with the TDC before firing off my 4 fish in a spread hoping to hit the cruiser. All miss. Frustrated, I break off the attack and go deep to avoid the DDs and decided to live to fight another day.

Okay now onto my question(s):
Am I expected to always report a convoy no matter what?

There was another time when I spotted the a large IJN convoy and in a good position (Battleships, Carriers, Cruisers), I make a report and get a message somehting like "We have been notified of the convoy, will send out additional forces to deal with them. Attack at your own descretion" So I wasn't FORCED to sink any of the ships. (I was in good position, I did anyway, ending up taking out 1 BB and 1 Cruiser).
In this case I was hoping to get that same msg but guess it didn't happen.

So if I sank 10 ships on this patrol but if none of them were warships, do I fail the mission?

Now I know at least to TRY to get in a better position before making a report but in this case was a bit difficult as I had no radar to determine the convoy's heading and range. My deckcrew seemed to be asleep as well so no visual updates (Contacts came to within 2000yrds, clear weather, excellent visibility, during the night) except for my own eyes (another feature of the extreme 'realism' of the new RFB?:hmm

Should I have even made at report in my (bad) position? Even though my mission objects said to report any convoys spotted in the patrol area first before any action is taken (Im also running RSRD). I assume IRL, there was no question about it.

[Kruger]

I did not se any useful effect in reporting convoys and task forces. There are no friendly AI's willing to join the battle, no planes to come and help you, no nothing. You will just receive the eye-candy radio message back to instruct you to make the attack...or not

[Rockin Robbins]

I always report convoys and single contacts. It adds renown to your score.

If your mission is to sink warships and you do not, then you fail. But escorts are warships and usually you can persuade one to do battle. Welcome to the wonderful world of radarless S-boats. On the dinner menu is a lot of frustration, followed by limited success and hopefully survival.

[Diopos]

Don't ping when they're warships around! Much more so when they're alot of DDs around! You "announce" yourself! Good for tea parties, bad for sub warfare!

[Fattysbox]

When you pinged you caused the convoy to zig zag. Don't ping next and its much easier to get in to position. Dive deep when those 3 DDs are close, let them pass and pop up to PD... Convoy should be right in front of you. At least thats my strategy...

[SteamWake]

You are not 'expected' to report but I usually try to report the contacts, its not always possible and sometimes as you have found out they will task you with disrupting the convoy. Which again is not always possible.

As the others have said pinging for range while the escorts are on point is a bad idea. Its kind of like ringing the dinner bell and shouting "Here I am come and get me !" When the whole idea is to not let them know your there till stuff starts blowing up. Next time pop up your scope for a few moments and use that to get your range. Just dont forget to put it back down again :rotfl: . Get some 'situational awarness' and try to use the passive sonar to track your targets. It will give you rough estimates to range (actually too good but thats another topic).

[tomoose]

IRL, yes, as a skipper you'd be expected to report whenever possible any significant enemy movement as that provides the Intelligence gurus one more piece of the huge puzzle and could influence operational or even strategic decisions.

In the game, I don't think there's anything gained by not reporting. As you say it might depend on the response you get back on the radio but you don't get any response from HQ if you don't report.

[tater]

Actually, in RL a USN sub skipper would almost NEVER report a contact.

It was only likely they would do so if they carried specific orders to, and even then they'd not do so unless it was impossible for them to attack, and only then if it was a high-value target. They were very very concerned about enemy DF gear.

I NEVER report contacts, though I know the game wants me to, I simply cannot suspend disbelief and do so.

The real "silent service" was indeed silent. When we started messing with small pack tactics (3 boats, usually) it was hard to get the skippers to even use short range radios with 3 letter code groups because they were so totally used to the doctrine of "no radio use, EVER."

The range to make contact reports in SH4 is grossly short. To have any sense of realism, the range should be set from 4500 yards or whatever it is to maybe 25,000 yards. Any such reports should only be made if there is ZERO chance of making an end around, and only then if the target has real value (a task force, or decent sized convoy).

tater

[SteamWake]

Hey Tater...

I reported one last night only after sinking 5 of the ships and the rest managed to slip away while evading.

Does that count :rotfl: I mean its not like they dident know I was there. Hell one DD stuck behind at the original contact point for hours looking for me.

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by tater

Actually, in RL a USN sub skipper would almost NEVER report a contact.

It was only likely they would do so if they carried specific orders to, and even then they'd not do so unless it was impossible for them to attack, and only then if it was a high-value target. They were very very concerned about enemy DF gear.

I NEVER report contacts, though I know the game wants me to, I simply cannot suspend disbelief and do so.

The real "silent service" was indeed silent. When we started messing with small pack tactics (3 boats, usually) it was hard to get the skippers to even use short range radios with 3 letter code groups because they were so totally used to the doctrine of "no radio use, EVER."

The range to make contact reports in SH4 is grossly short. To have any sense of realism, the range should be set from 4500 yards or whatever it is to maybe 25,000 yards. Any such reports should only be made if there is ZERO chance of making an end around, and only then if the target has real value (a task force, or decent sized convoy).

tater

I disagree. The wolf packs frequently contacted each other to coordinate the attacks according to 'Silent Victory'. Also, many boats would report the contact after their attack was over and they were clear. Something you can't do in SH4! There were orders to report first and attack second issued, which you mentioned, when the boats were used as a scouting line during invasions. This was amended to shoot first after some juicy targets were missed. Again, according to Clay Blaire's 'Silent Victory'.

Buddahaid

[tater]

Even after an attack, they'd likely not do so, certainly not while any escorts or ships with radios might be around. Why? Because then they would be known to still be alive.

You attack, the escorts dump a few DCs in a desultory attack. They go back and report to their bosses that they sunk you. Heck, knowing the IJN, they report sinking TWO subs! You are now safe.

If you surface and radio, then they know they didn't sink you (or think there is a 3d sub ) and either come back, or they call in air support in some areas. IJN doctrine regarding air was not all that bad. really. They'd indeed try and saturate an area and limit how far you could escape (since submerged you radius is quite small).

Anyway, the USN was not "chatty" which is a large part of the reason so few US subs were sunk. MANY German and Japanese subs were sunk because of their constant use of radio communications, it wasn't just codebreaking, plain ole DF would have done them in, too.

[Orion2012]

Depends. If I have no chance of intercepting and I make visual contact at close range and feel that I'm gonna get the crap DC'd out of me, then I fire off a report directly after ordering for emergency dive. I figure by that point, if he's lookin at me who cares what I radio.

If I have a chance to attack him, I don't dare send it until he is steaming away filling with water.


On the subject of reporting the convoy, is there not a chance of allied air support??

[tomoose]

Point taken; it would be a judgement call by the captain. e.g. A skipper sees an obvious enemy invasion task force heading in a specific direction, I think he'd call it in, I know I would knowing that DF on my moving sub would be problematic at best and the bad guys would not be able to pinpoint my location or my direction of travel.

[tater]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

I disagree. The wolf packs frequently contacted each other to coordinate the attacks according to 'Silent Victory'. Also, many boats would report the contact after their attack was over and they were clear. Something you can't do in SH4! There were orders to report first and attack second issued, which you mentioned, when the boats were used as a scouting line during invasions. This was amended to shoot first after some juicy targets were missed. Again, according to Clay Blaire's 'Silent Victory'.

Buddahaid

Yes, specific orders as you point out, but they were rescinded as you say.

I didn't say that our late war packs never used the radio, but rather that it was hard to convince the skippers to do so (they eventually got better at it). When they started, however, it was like pulling teeth to get them to be as chatty as they needed to be for effective pack tactics. Most boats would err on the side of silence at the beginning of wolf packs, decreasing their effectiveness.

But again, short ranged radios, and packs, something impossible in SH4 anyway.

As for after attacks were over, yeah, they might well make a radio report, but "in the clear" is important. That doesn't mean just a few thousand yards away, it means safe from retribution. Maybe the next night if it was a daylight attack, or perhaps the same night if they could run free and fast on the surface to get away from the scene. The fear would be that air units would appear and force them to remain submerged, limiting their ability to get away. If you keep a sub down long enough, it eventually has to come up, and even IJN doctrine recognized this.

So I stand by the fact that US subs (barring orders like picket boats tasked to do intel (and attack)) would shoot first, and only report if shooting was no option, or they had already attacked. Pre-attack radio contact as the only radio paradigm in game is making some tiny fraction of a percent of fleet boat comms the ONLY method in game.

As for "judgement calls" by the skipper, captains do what they were trained to do. Timing matters (within the war).

Early in the war, skippers even attacked from 100ft down since that was the doctrine at the start of the war. Those (largely older) skippers were replaced with more aggressive guys, and things changed. Silence did not change til later in the war, though. Sure, they'd likely report a TF or convoy early on if they could not attack, but again, when safe to do so. IJN DF gear was actually good, but more importantly, USN doctrine assumed it was far better than it actually was (just as they assumed that air was more capable than it really was in spotting subs).

Late in the war, they were more likely to use the radio, particularly the short range sets in packs.

The current engine seems designed around the KM's overuse of the radio to call home, then central direction from the mainland.

tater

[Rockin Robbins]

In Edward Beach and Eugene Fluckey's books, the skippers in a wolf pack tended to physically rendezvous and confer in person rather than use the radio for comparing notes and strategy sessions. They hated to use the radio according to these two authors.