Pause for thought differences in education.

[jlmurc]

I have been thinking about why despite enjoying both of the latest evolutions of Silent Hunter, both III and IV, I am always drawn back to hunting in the cold waters of the Atlantic and wonder if age and education is part of the reason. I have to say that WWII had only been ended 15 years before, almost exactly as I was born on the 9th May.

I was born in 1960 in Great Britain and have travelled widely both with my Father as a Royal Air Force Officer and as a member of the Armed Forces myself, so have enjoyed education in a variety of locations, but mainly in either state schools or those that were set up by the Military when overseas.

I am interested in hearing the thoughts of other skippers, who were born in the US or in countries around the Pacific Rim, because I have come to recognise that although, in study of modern history, I learn't about all of the important events of WWII, much of the focus was of the events in the European Theater of Operation, with only the major events of the Pacific War, being studied to any great depth ie Pearl Harbour, Singapore, Malaya and Burma,plus the invasions of the Island groups and of course the use of the atomic bomb. However we spent a great deal of time on the events of the war against Nazism, with lots of contact through family and friends of those who fought for the Allied cause as well as seeing some of the ongoing re-building in Germany, when my Dad was posted there. If you add to that films, books and other forms of entertainment and hobbies, I have a great deal of knowledge of the events of the war that were so close to this country, but it is only as an adult that I have taken a major interest in deeper examination of the war in the Pacific.

I feel that this may well be part of the reason that I enjoy playing the role of U-Boat Commander so much, as the Pacific Theater, was so far away and not as widely studied in education. I do for instance remember meeting veterans that would not under any circumstances buy any goods that were Japanese in origin and in the early 70's, whilst living in Cyprus, some superbly reliable motor cars went under the title Golt Gallant, with the Mitsubishi logos being hidden away, so as not to offend those who had fought in the far East.

So as this is a place where there seems to be interesting discussion, surrounding the reality of those events that we engage in/simulate in our learning and when on patrol, do others have any feelings or thoughts on my view?

In closing I do wish to state that this subject is for discussion only and is not intended to upset or cause hurt to anybody else.

I look forward to seeing the thoughts of others.

Aye,

John

[GoldenRivet]

As i was growing up in Rural Texas i had two heroes.

One was my paternal grandfather, he was a merchant marine, a sea captain complete with the white beard like you see in the movies, and a fine smelling high quality cigar never too far from reach. he was a man that to a 5 year old boy seemed large than life itself... and though his presence commanded respect, he was probably the kindest and most gentile human being i have ever known in my life.

His home, but a stones throw from Mexico Beach Florida had a large brass ships wheel in the front yard, complete with a flag pole and a brass bell.

Some of my earliest memories involve standing out there in his front yard, at 5 years old not even standing high enough to see over the ships wheel. I steered us through a lot of rough storms and around a lot of battleships and submarines in that front yard. and im almost sure of the fact that the bell drove the neighbors insane.

Being a sea captain, his home was replete with all things nautical and strange trinkets and what not from various parts of the world. As his area of responsibility was primarily the Atlantic ocean, most of the items within his museum of a house drew from his experiences in the Atlantic no doubt. It was truly a wondrous place to grow, and had he lived past my 12th birthday i probably would have gone to sea myself.

Burying that hero was probably the saddest day of my life.

My second hero, my maternal grandfather was an infantryman under Patton's 3rd U.S. Army who came ashore in normandy and stayed with that posting until VE-Day.

He was a coal miner, and a steel mill worker in the backwoods of Eastern Kentucky before the war. He literally was born in - and did most of his growing up in an honest to goodness log cabin (the remains of the chimney still stand deep in the overgrown mountains of Appalachia).

As a hunter, he was a natural as a U.S. Army sharpshooter and according to many verbal accounts from friends and family he "could hit a running rabbit at 100 yards".

He Joined the Army on December 8th 1941 like most young men, and due to illness was removed from his training and his unit and reassigned to another unit when his health returned. His old Unit went to the Pacific theater, and his new unit went to England.

He never really speaks much about his experiences during world war two. However, while looking for some scratch paper in the drawer of an upstairs bedroom one day i located his Honorable Discharge papers which were Dated in 1945. According to the document, he had served in every major campaign which patton's 3rd army had been a part of, and had been awarded several medals. Though he told us his profession in the military was "truck driver" the document listed him as being a "sharp shooter".

i always remember his home being decorated with commemorative pieces related to the Eurpoean Theatre of Operations.

And he even has his uniform hanging in his closet, decorated fully as if it had just been worn yesterday.

For me... it is difficult to grow up with two such heroes and NOT have a deeper appreciation for the Atlantic and the European sections of WWII versus the Pacific.

though i am highly familiar with the Pacific engagements and many of the signifigant events of the PTO... im just so much more passionate about the ETO.

thanks for reading.

thats an excellent question and i never really thought about it until now.

~GR

Through High School and beyond?

I have always been interested in WWII.

In High School I Majored in History.
My main interest was, of course, WWII.
I knew more facts then the Teacher!

After High School I joined the 82nd AirBorne.
I needed the thrill and challange.
But always had books around on the Sub Services.
I even qualified to transfer to the Army Divers program!

I started with SH1
And LOVED it!!

I had to pass on SH2 ecause my real life and the system I had
could not run it.

I came late to SH3.
But it was all I could hope for after being away.
Until I got the Modding Bug.

Most of my older family members fought in the Pacific.
My Uncle fought in Korea.

I fought in Grenada and Panama.
And did missions else where.

But the Courage and Determenation of the U-Boat Crews,
and the area of Operations,
Are of the unmost interest to me.

[Chisum]

Well...

I was born in 1952 and like you, for me the WW2 is in Europe and even the West Europe.
In my country we never say "the war 1939-1945" but always "the war 1940-1945".
It's clear.
Invasion may 10, 1940, battle of Britain, occupation and resistance actions, and the major point the D Day, Sainte Mère Eglise and Omaha beach the glory of "AA" Airborne and my eternel gratitude for all of the poor guys who sleep today at Colleville-sur-mer.
And finally the battle of the bulges of course witch was 25 miles near my hometown.
That's my WW2 references.

The war in the Pacific would never attracted me, except for acts of bravery of Kamikazes.
About Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it disgusting me.

It makes that for me, SH3 is on a U-Boot and in the Atlantic not in a pink submarine in the Pacific.

[Sailor Steve]

I was born in 1950, and grew up in the shadow of the war. I was always interested in the machinery, but mostly the planes. Of course I saw movies that told me how America won the war single-handed, and how it was all in the Pacific, except of course for the B-17s bombing Germany.

The 1960s brought new movies like Sink The Bismarck, The Longest Day, Battle of Britain and others that showed me a wider view. It took years for me to find out the war didn't start on December 7, 1941.

1983 brought Das Boot and 1985 found me playing Silent Service on my Atari 520ST. It wasn't until 1998 that I got my first PC and discovered Silent Hunter. As I played that I found myself wishing I could do it in a u-boat. When SH2 came along I was both happy and disappointed, and then I found an old copy of Aces Of The Deep.

My real interest is in Early American History and some aspects of World War One, but my gaming is all about the submarines. I love the machinery for itself and will gladly play either side in subs or surface ships.

[headcase]

I was born in the VERY late 60's to an Infantryman and his wife. Growed up diggin' music and math. Didn't do worth a flip at much of anything except sax in junior high. Didn't know how to deal with the Navy Recruiter in HS so I missed out on that chance. Wanted to go to OSC and wind up Commandind a fast-attack. Wound up after a failed attempt or three at Music School in the Infantry my own self. Never gave up the horn. Seperated from the U.S. Army, and within 9 months wound up playing on Cruise ships. Got fired once came close a few more times in the ensuing 10 years.

While I was bugged out of Ship Gigs a drummer hooked me up with SHII. It was cool. But I was into Jane's Longbow at the time . I sucked at it maybe beyond sucked. SHIII came out I All but built a system around it.

[Antiacus]

Born in 72.

Grandson of a Pacific Theater Marine.

As a kid is spent my summer days zig zagging through the sand dunes on the Oregon coast dodging bullets on "Iwo".

In my early teens i was drawn to the politics of the ETO probably more because culturally i could identify better with europeans. The Battle of Britain has always fascinated me. The scenes of sacrifice and bravery of the British people never fails to move me. Christian people huddled together, suffering, but refusing to lose faith.

Now that i'm in my 30's i'm learning about the Pacific peoples more and more. I'm just now starting to gain an understanding of the political climate in Japan that led to war and it's no less fascinating and enlightening.

As for gaming, i'm still always drawn to the Eastern theater. I just know it better and therefore the ability to immerse myself is more complete.

[Murr44]

Born in 1963 in Eastern Ontario. My maternal grandfather & maternal great uncle were Great War veterans (WW I for those unfamiliar with the term "Great War"). My maternal grandad passed on few years before I came along. My great uncle Bruce (mom's side) survived the war only to die in about 1928-29 from complications from being gassed.

On Dad's side I remember my great Uncle John. He was captured on Crete & spent the rest of WW II in a POW camp. He caught dysentery there from the poor diet and living conditions & if I remember correctly, he never really recovered his health.

I was always interested in WW II. I guess that I inherited that from my dad. He had stacks & stacks of books and since I wasn't really good at sports I started reading them.

I used to collect Third Reich & Soviet era medals & badges. I managed to amass a fair sized collection (which I still have) before I stopped; realized that I pretty well had everything that I could afford.

Started playing SH III last year. Dad would have loved GWX. He liked flight sims but I'm sure that GWX would've gotten him hooked on SH III (much like I am ). I think about him sometimes when I'm playing & say to myself "If only Dad could see this"...

[Chisum]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

The 1960s brought new movies like Sink The Bismarck, The Longest Day, Battle of Britain and others that showed me a wider view. It took years for me to find out the war didn't start on December 7, 1941.

I hope you have watch this movie too:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049665/

[jlmurc]

It is great that so many skippers have replied and actually echoed many of the thoughts and values that I myself hold dear. I was one of those servicemen that trained from the age of 16, as a Junior Soldier, on armour, to respond to the need of the Western Allies, to defend against the real threat of the warsaw pact, but never saw the chance to experience combat.

I have always held those who fought and died, so as to give me the freedom to make personal choices in my life, to follow whatever path I desire. My Grandfather on my Dad's side was an RSM in the Rifle Brigade and never forgave the Army, for not allowing him to see frontline service as he was deemed to be too old, but young enough to pass his knowledge on to others.
Them My Mum's Dad, served in the Royal Navy and initially served in the Med on Malta Convoys, but later was part of the force on MTB's that protected the Eastern coast of the UK, against the 'S' Boats and the U-Boats that might have gathered intelligence on the build up to 'D' day. It is also more telling that I spent many of my Holidays with them in a small seaside town, only a short distance from Slapton Sands, where all of those young men of the US Army and Navy, died in a sea that was cold and cruel, through errors and misfortune. I had heard about this many years before the story was released, because even although it was kept a secret, local fisherman, knew what had taken place and often prayed for their souls.

It must be said that to many of us who have not had the chance to visit the Pacific, that our views are often tainted in thinking it a warm and beautiful place, after learning of things like the voyages of Capt Cook, whereas the Atlantic is a cold and forbidding place; which I know is true as I have seen its power, through sunshine and storms.

I have been amazed that the teaching of history in schools now, seems to avoid too much discussion of WWII, leaning towards more modern events, which often seem to be tilted in a manner that meets the personal views of the teacher.
I enjoy MIlitary Modelling and simulations like Silent Hunter and earnestly believe that there is a serious side , to our hobby and discussion, in keeping history alive.

Then by keeping history alive, we continue to remember the warnings from the past and seek to keep alive the memory of those who gave the ultimate gift, in keeping freedom alive for us all to enjoy.

To me though the thought that 75% of those young men, who sailed off to war, in the U-Boat fleet, never returned and are on eternal patrol in the cold and dark of the Atlantic.

So for all those who have died, or suffer still through their service to keep freedom alive, I give daily thanks.

Hopefully not a sermon, but an echo of our gratitude, for our right to make choices in our lives.

Aye,

John

[jlmurc]

Originally Posted by Chisum

I hope you have watch this movie too:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049665/

A film that shows what sheer determination and courage can achive and I was fortunate enough as a young child to meet Douglas Bader at an RAF station where my Dad served.

A great man and a wonderful film.

Aye,

John

[Captain Nemo]

Born in 1962 and as far back I can remember I have always taken an interest in WWII (both theatres) and WWI to some extent. My dad was to young to serve in the forces in WWII, however, two of his older brothers served in the Royal Navy. The eldest served from 1939 onwards in destroyers escorting the Atlantic convoys and the second eldest served from late 1944 in the Pacific in submarines in HMS Tiptoe. Sadly both are not with us now so I can't ask them about their experiences and didn't ask to much when I was younger because my dad said they very rarely discussed the war. Two things that stick in my mind today are something my uncle who served on submarines said. Soon after he joined the navy, they were looking for new recruits for submarines. Anyway, in a line up an officer asked for volunteers to step forward, when no one stepped forward the officer went along the line and picked people out, my uncle was one of them! So much for the RN saying that all submariners were volunteers! Also, during an American attack on one of the islands in the Pacific he witnessed through the periscope the bravery of the American soldiers who were leading the attack on the beaches. After seeing this he refused to say or hear anything bad about an American again.

Nemo

[Rommer69]

Born in 1969, in Spain, so though I´m very interested in WWII, both theatres, all types of battles (terrestrian, naval and aerial) and the Holocaust i have no family at all involved in any theatre and there are no militar staff relatives.

I like more ETO and the atlantic, but maybe only because the role of the US submarines is less known than their german counterparts and the role of the US navy in the pacific is better known for their surface and air battles.

I´ve always admire all the people who get involved, many of them by their own, to let us live our actual way of life. Honour to all of them.

But I love both SH3 and SH4. I play more SH3, but less than i would want!

[Kielhauler1961]

...and I was fortunate enough as a young child to meet Douglas Bader at an RAF station where my Dad served.

A great man...

Born in 1961. We are a load of 'oldsters' aren't we?

Douglas Bader groped my mother's @rse at an official function in the 1950's. She only told my father after the function had ended and he never spoke to Bader again.

My father was called-up in April 1940. He chose the Royal Navy (later my choice as well but under less trying circumstances). He first went to sea on HMS Patia, a CAM-ship that was sunk by the Luftwaffe in May 1941 in the North Sea off the Farne Islands.

After that he joined the Fleet Air Arm, flying Swordfish, and later, Grumman Avengers. He was aboard HMS Unicorn at the Salerno landings, where the ship's entire complement of Seafires were written-off in deck landing accidents in the first week, then back to Blighty via the USA for Avenger conversion training in time for D-Day.

On one ant-submarine patrol over the English Channel after D-Day (flying from RAF Manston in Kent), his air-gunner, Fred Shirmer, shot-down a V-1 with only 20 rounds of .50 calibre. This was the only instance of a non-fighter aircraft bringing down one of these weapons.

Then he was posted to 854 squadron, FAA, and joined HMS Illustrious on her trip with the British Pacific Fleet in 1944-45, bombing the oil refineries at Palambang in Sumatra and later the Japanese airfields on the islands of the Sakashima Gunto.

After the war, he re-trained as a test pilot and joined the Special Handling Squadron at Hullavington, England, in 1946, flying new allied and captured axis aircraft for evaluation. One day a friend of his, who was testing the Grumman Bearcat, suggested a race to my father. My dad was testing the de Haviland Sea Hornet, a navalised version of the Mosquito.

They went up to 20,000 feet and on a given signal pushed the throttles fully forward. The Sea Hornet 'just walked away' from the Bearcat...

He later went on to become Chief Test Pilot of the ARB, later the CAA. Some of you may have heard of his book: 'Handling the Big Jets' by D. P. Davies?

The flying stories he had were legion! Blimey, I've wandered off-topic a bit, got carried away!

Anyways, I tried SH4 but just couldn't get enthusiastic about it. U-Boats have always been my passion and ever since GWX and SH3 Commander and other mods have been available, SH4 just gathers dust on my shelf. ETO for me everytime.

[onelifecrisis]

Born in 77 - a bit later than most people in this thread. My grandparents were only children during WW2. But, on topic, I opted to study the 20th century in history classes at school, and although the two-year course did cover several major events in America (prohibition, the wall street crash, etc.) when it came to the wars the focus was heavily on Europe. We learned about about the "neutral" things America did before Pearl Harbor, and of course the attack on Pearl Harbor itself, and briefly about some supposedly important battle at somewhere called Midway , and then the US nuked Japan twice, and that was game over. And that was about all I learned on that side of things. But the wars in Europe were covered extensively, and that's definitely one reason why SH3 is interesting to me.

Also, with regards to ETO vs PTO... I knew before buying SH3 that the war had gotten harder and harder for RL U-boat crews, and that the game modelled this to some extent. This I saw (and still see) as "2 birds for 1 stone" for SH3: historical accuracy and a gradual increase in game difficulty! Those are both good things in any war simulation, and in SH3 they complement each other perfectly.

In contrast to that, my (limited) understanding of the PTO is that life got easier and easier for the US subs, and I've often wondered how SH4 gets around this problem without sacrificing historical accuracy or gameplay.