Fast Mini-Convoy - what's a skipper to do???

yairiny · 08-30-08, 11:13 PM

Hi,

Going (very slowly) through my first career (this is an excuse for saving as soon as contact is made, and retrying to make the most of each situation

), I have just encountered a mini-convoy consisting of a destroyer and a large modern composite going 18 knots on a fairly clear day. I am in Porpoise class sub, so my flank speed is 18 knots. Also, I an not in a position well ahead enough of them to sneak in at low speed so as to lie in wait, so in order to close, I have to use that flank bell.

So, on the surface, at flank I closed the distance somewhat, and using the dick o'kane, without the 90 degree part, I fired off a salvo of 4 torps from about 4000 yards or so, 2 on the surface and 2 at just a bit less than keel depth, contact and contact/magnetic respectively.

Following the torps with external cam, I could see that the solution was pretty accurate, trouble is that as the torps got close, the darn merchie swerved right causing them to miss ahead, and then the destroyer started looking for me...

So, question is, what would you sub gurus do in a situation like this? How do you get close enough without being detected? Would I be better off to shadow them and wait for nightfall so I can get in closer? Downside is that to keep up with them I'd have to be at flank speed all day...

Anyway, I'd love to hear your opinions, I'm quite sure I could learn lots!

Cheers

Orion2012 · 08-30-08, 11:55 PM

I personally would just let them pass and report the contact. Shadowing them uses to much fuel, and if they are doing 18kts, you wont gain much ground, and for me to fire I wanna be within 1500 yards.

Also running on the surface could get you attacked with the DD's guns, or even worse, aircraft called in, which if you run any mods, could result in a very quick death.

Also in a porpose class you only have 12 front torps anyway, at a range of 4000 yards you need 3-4 to be relatively certain one will detonate. So firing roughly 1/3 of your total loadout at a target whose demise is anything but certain.

Last off, at 400 yards running away a torpedo on high speed may not make it, and the ones on low speed, are easily avoided.

Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

iambecomelife · 08-31-08, 01:09 AM

I would lean towards letting them pass, but if you MUST attack, try to pull a Freddie Warder. Warder would deliberately attract the attention of escorts and then sink them using a shallow-draft "down the throat" spread from head on. This shot is difficult to judge - too far and the escort will evade - too close and you will collide (and the torpedoes won't arm themselves). It's extremely risky, and you may not want to do this if you are playing D.I.D.

The freighter may actually be a tougher kill since it will probably evade instead of heading towards your sub. I think your best bet is to surface after sinking the escort, try your best to close with the freighter, and pummel it at long range with your deck gun, hoping to slow it down enough to set up a torpedo kill. Of course, you will need to keep a sharp lookout for additional air and sea forces.

Task Force · 08-31-08, 01:18 AM

Id do what iambecomelife said. Thats how Ive gotten my tonage in SH3

SteamWake · 08-31-08, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iambecomelife

Warder would deliberately attract the attention of escorts and then sink them using a shallow-draft "down the throat" spread from head on. This shot is difficult to judge .

Not to mention suicidal :p of course it is just a game so hell give it a shot if you wish.

Sometimes you have to use your judgement as a skipper and come to the conclusin you just cant pursue the contact. Often the reason is you would just burn too much fuel to do so, or the contact is to far heading away.

On calling it in thats a fine idea except that often they will in their infinate wisdom respond "Good find, now sink them" which gives you cause to second guess your judgement.... Dont.

Somtimes you just have to let it go.

Pisces · 08-31-08, 12:12 PM

Putting the target on your beam (90/270 degrees) makes best use of your speed to get ahead of him, IF the AOB is <90. It forces him doing al the work in closing to you. And it also means the intercept/meeting point wil be very far ahead. Running at flank so long may not be wise. There may even be islands in the way depending on the geography. If you start behind his beam (AOB >90) and your speed is the same you can certainly forget it, a pointless excercise.

Moving into the 90 degree Dick O'kane setup should only be done at the last moment. You do not want to do that too early or you loose valuable ground on him.

Also, you have to consider how sure you are of it's course. Is it certain to the degree or is it a ENE/WSW kind of course. Those are alot more iffie. You have to figure out how far the convoy can move before you are unable to pick him up on any of your sensors (because his actual course might lead him past your sensor range). Can you get to him before that runs out? That's imho the most important deal-breaker. And the chance he makes a course change before you make sensor-contact.

Have you tried this technique to plot the propper course?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=88961

Edit: In addition to what the link says: Instead of using the convoy actual position at the time of making the drawing, use the point a safe distance ahead of it to base the drawing on. (place a circle of max visual range on it and let the line to target touch the front side of the circle) This kills 2 birds with one stone. You close on the most efficient course, and get ahead while doing it. Just before crossing his course, do the 90 degree O'kane thing.

Arclight · 09-01-08, 04:04 AM

If I get a contact moving away from me, I let it go. Not worth the fuel chasing it down, and I know where to find more (unescorted) targets anyway. Unless it's moving "slow" or it's a really juicy target (+10.000 tons), it's not worth it IMHO.

Save the fuel and use it to park yourself at a chokepoint in the middle of a shipping lane. They'll be handed to you on a silver platter.

Zero Niner · 09-01-08, 04:31 AM

Hmmm... if it's late in the war and targets are scarce I might attempt an attack unless it's clearly difficult to get into position.

Otherwise I'd leave it alone. There will be other targets.

yairiny · 09-01-08, 08:15 AM

Thanks for the advice guys. It's hard to let go, especially in a game, but I guess I need to learn that too

Cheers

iksoks · 09-01-08, 01:47 PM

in real life ?? let it go...
In a game: save and experiment....

once i got a Liner going flank (21 knots i think) escorted by 2 DE´s from ca 8500 meters with 3 eel´s, all hit !!!!

(lucky bastard). No way i could intercept...

than i loaded 4 times more to try again and missed or got my ass kicked...

its fun....

08-30-08, 11:13 PM	#1
yairiny Watch Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 15 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Fast Mini-Convoy - what's a skipper to do??? Hi, Going (very slowly) through my first career (this is an excuse for saving as soon as contact is made, and retrying to make the most of each situation ), I have just encountered a mini-convoy consisting of a destroyer and a large modern composite going 18 knots on a fairly clear day. I am in Porpoise class sub, so my flank speed is 18 knots. Also, I an not in a position well ahead enough of them to sneak in at low speed so as to lie in wait, so in order to close, I have to use that flank bell. So, on the surface, at flank I closed the distance somewhat, and using the dick o'kane, without the 90 degree part, I fired off a salvo of 4 torps from about 4000 yards or so, 2 on the surface and 2 at just a bit less than keel depth, contact and contact/magnetic respectively. Following the torps with external cam, I could see that the solution was pretty accurate, trouble is that as the torps got close, the darn merchie swerved right causing them to miss ahead, and then the destroyer started looking for me... So, question is, what would you sub gurus do in a situation like this? How do you get close enough without being detected? Would I be better off to shadow them and wait for nightfall so I can get in closer? Downside is that to keep up with them I'd have to be at flank speed all day... Anyway, I'd love to hear your opinions, I'm quite sure I could learn lots! Cheers

08-31-08, 01:09 AM	#3
iambecomelife Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 4,706 Downloads: 300 Uploads: 0	I would lean towards letting them pass, but if you MUST attack, try to pull a Freddie Warder. Warder would deliberately attract the attention of escorts and then sink them using a shallow-draft "down the throat" spread from head on. This shot is difficult to judge - too far and the escort will evade - too close and you will collide (and the torpedoes won't arm themselves). It's extremely risky, and you may not want to do this if you are playing D.I.D. The freighter may actually be a tougher kill since it will probably evade instead of heading towards your sub. I think your best bet is to surface after sinking the escort, try your best to close with the freighter, and pummel it at long range with your deck gun, hoping to slow it down enough to set up a torpedo kill. Of course, you will need to keep a sharp lookout for additional air and sea forces. __________________ https://www.facebook.com/WolvesoftheKaiser/

08-31-08, 01:18 AM	#4
Task Force Rear Admiral Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: SPACE!!!! Posts: 10,142 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Id do what iambecomelife said. Thats how Ive gotten my tonage in SH3 __________________ Task Force industries "Taking control of the world, one mind at a time"

08-31-08, 12:12 PM	#6
Pisces Silent Hunter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: AN9771 Posts: 4,904 Downloads: 304 Uploads: 0	Putting the target on your beam (90/270 degrees) makes best use of your speed to get ahead of him, IF the AOB is <90. It forces him doing al the work in closing to you. And it also means the intercept/meeting point wil be very far ahead. Running at flank so long may not be wise. There may even be islands in the way depending on the geography. If you start behind his beam (AOB >90) and your speed is the same you can certainly forget it, a pointless excercise. Moving into the 90 degree Dick O'kane setup should only be done at the last moment. You do not want to do that too early or you loose valuable ground on him. Also, you have to consider how sure you are of it's course. Is it certain to the degree or is it a ENE/WSW kind of course. Those are alot more iffie. You have to figure out how far the convoy can move before you are unable to pick him up on any of your sensors (because his actual course might lead him past your sensor range). Can you get to him before that runs out? That's imho the most important deal-breaker. And the chance he makes a course change before you make sensor-contact. Have you tried this technique to plot the propper course? http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=88961 Edit: In addition to what the link says: Instead of using the convoy actual position at the time of making the drawing, use the point a safe distance ahead of it to base the drawing on. (place a circle of max visual range on it and let the line to target touch the front side of the circle) This kills 2 birds with one stone. You close on the most efficient course, and get ahead while doing it. Just before crossing his course, do the 90 degree O'kane thing. Last edited by Pisces; 08-31-08 at 12:52 PM.

09-01-08, 04:04 AM	#7
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	If I get a contact moving away from me, I let it go. Not worth the fuel chasing it down, and I know where to find more (unescorted) targets anyway. Unless it's moving "slow" or it's a really juicy target (+10.000 tons), it's not worth it IMHO. Save the fuel and use it to park yourself at a chokepoint in the middle of a shipping lane. They'll be handed to you on a silver platter. __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

08-30-08, 11:55 PM	#2
Orion2012 Commodore Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 611 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I personally would just let them pass and report the contact. Shadowing them uses to much fuel, and if they are doing 18kts, you wont gain much ground, and for me to fire I wanna be within 1500 yards. Also running on the surface could get you attacked with the DD's guns, or even worse, aircraft called in, which if you run any mods, could result in a very quick death. Also in a porpose class you only have 12 front torps anyway, at a range of 4000 yards you need 3-4 to be relatively certain one will detonate. So firing roughly 1/3 of your total loadout at a target whose demise is anything but certain. Last off, at 400 yards running away a torpedo on high speed may not make it, and the ones on low speed, are easily avoided. Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

09-01-08, 04:31 AM	#8
Zero Niner Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,033 Downloads: 69 Uploads: 0	Hmmm... if it's late in the war and targets are scarce I might attempt an attack unless it's clearly difficult to get into position. Otherwise I'd leave it alone. There will be other targets.

09-01-08, 08:15 AM	#9
yairiny Watch Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 15 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Thanks for the advice guys. It's hard to let go, especially in a game, but I guess I need to learn that too Cheers

09-01-08, 01:47 PM	#10
iksoks Swabbie Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 11 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	in real life ?? let it go... In a game: save and experiment.... once i got a Liner going flank (21 knots i think) escorted by 2 DE´s from ca 8500 meters with 3 eel´s, all hit !!!! (lucky bastard). No way i could intercept... than i loaded 4 times more to try again and missed or got my ass kicked... its fun....