On this day forty years ago? Yep, good ole Russia in the news

geetrue · 08-21-08, 05:08 PM

http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news....es/on-this-day

Quote:

August 21, 2008 2:00 PM
by Denis Cummings
On August 21, 1968, the Soviet Union and its Warsaw Pact allies sent 200,000 troops into Czechoslovakia to wipe out the democratic reforms of Alexander Dubcek.

joegrundman · 08-21-08, 06:18 PM

Chill out will you, geetrue

back in the bad ol' days of the cold war, the US also found it expedient to do away with unwanted democratic regimes

but no doubt you don't remember

Platapus · 08-21-08, 06:37 PM

It would be interesting to tally up how many governments the Soviet Union/Russia has over thrown and the number of governments the United States has overthrown.

SUBMAN1 · 08-21-08, 06:39 PM

I'm guessing that would be a lopsided tally.

-S

Platapus · 08-21-08, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

I'm guessing that would be a lopsided tally.

-S

Agreed, but lopsided on what side?

SUBMAN1 · 08-21-08, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

Agreed, but lopsided on what side?

You tell me if you agree!

joegrundman · 08-21-08, 06:49 PM

Well, hell, why don't we do it?

Let's tally! and if we can keep our cool while we do it, it could be fun!

Do we include "CIA/KGB assists", such as the Shah of Iran and Sukarno/Suharto in Indonesia?

Do we also include failures, like the CIA assisted attempted military overthrow of Chavez? hmmm maybe failures should come in an honourable mention section at the end

Rules!
1. Only democratically elected (or at least mostly democratically elected) leaders count, so that rules out Saddam Hussein
2. CIA/KGB support is sufficient
4. Include date and for which team this point counts

play fair and enjoy

Platapus · 08-21-08, 06:50 PM

I will open with the overthrow of the Hawaii in 1893 by the United States.

I am not even bothering to count the Native Indians

SUBMAN1 · 08-21-08, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

I will open with the overthrow of the Hawaii in 1893 by the United States.

I am not even bothering to count the Native Indians

Ouch! If I were to include ancient history, England would pale the US in a heartbeat. Lets study cannibalism next.

-S

joegrundman · 08-21-08, 06:53 PM

I'm not sure they count as a democratic political system that was overthrown.

The overthrow of Mohammad Mossadeq and his replacement witht he Shah of Persia in 1953 in a joint CIA and SIS (MI6) organised operation (Operation Ajax)

Team: USA

joegrundman · 08-21-08, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

I will open with the overthrow of the Hawaii in 1893 by the United States.

I am not even bothering to count the Native Indians

Ouch! If I were to include ancient history, England would pale the US in a heartbeat. Lets study cannibalism next.

-S

The rules are : must have been a democratically elected regime that was overthrown. As Scotland was a feudal system, it's annexation by England doesn't count for the purposes of this list, nor the ....ethnic cleansing of the native americans, as it would be considered were it to happen today

SUBMAN1 · 08-21-08, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joegrundman

The rules are : must have been a democratically elected regime that was overthrown. As Scotland was a feudal system, it's annexation by England doesn't count for the purposes of this list, nor the ....ethnic cleansing of the native americans, as it would be considered were it to happen today

If these are the rules, then you must include military action in these rules too.

-S

joegrundman · 08-21-08, 07:01 PM

Nope: a lead role by intelligence agencies of either side is sufficient

August · 08-21-08, 09:54 PM

Who cares? It's the 40th anniversary of the brutal soviet attack on Czechoslovakia. Playing moral equivalency games does not change that.

joegrundman · 08-21-08, 10:59 PM

It's just a proposed list of overthrown democracies, August, for the benefit of posterity. Sorry if you find it intrudes on your nationalistic self-pleasuring, but please feel free to make a contribution.

08-21-08, 06:18 PM	#2
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	Chill out will you, geetrue back in the bad ol' days of the cold war, the US also found it expedient to do away with unwanted democratic regimes but no doubt you don't remember __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

08-21-08, 06:37 PM	#3
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,360 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	It would be interesting to tally up how many governments the Soviet Union/Russia has over thrown and the number of governments the United States has overthrown. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

08-21-08, 06:39 PM	#4
SUBMAN1 Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 11,866 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I'm guessing that would be a lopsided tally. -S __________________

08-21-08, 06:49 PM	#7
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	Well, hell, why don't we do it? Let's tally! and if we can keep our cool while we do it, it could be fun! Do we include "CIA/KGB assists", such as the Shah of Iran and Sukarno/Suharto in Indonesia? Do we also include failures, like the CIA assisted attempted military overthrow of Chavez? hmmm maybe failures should come in an honourable mention section at the end Rules! 1. Only democratically elected (or at least mostly democratically elected) leaders count, so that rules out Saddam Hussein 2. CIA/KGB support is sufficient 4. Include date and for which team this point counts play fair and enjoy __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

08-21-08, 06:50 PM	#8
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,360 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	I will open with the overthrow of the Hawaii in 1893 by the United States. I am not even bothering to count the Native Indians __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

08-21-08, 06:53 PM	#10
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	I'm not sure they count as a democratic political system that was overthrown. The overthrow of Mohammad Mossadeq and his replacement witht he Shah of Persia in 1953 in a joint CIA and SIS (MI6) organised operation (Operation Ajax) Team: USA __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

08-21-08, 07:01 PM	#13
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	Nope: a lead role by intelligence agencies of either side is sufficient __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill

08-21-08, 09:54 PM	#14
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 23,197 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Who cares? It's the 40th anniversary of the brutal soviet attack on Czechoslovakia. Playing moral equivalency games does not change that. __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.

08-21-08, 10:59 PM	#15
joegrundman Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,689 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	It's just a proposed list of overthrown democracies, August, for the benefit of posterity. Sorry if you find it intrudes on your nationalistic self-pleasuring, but please feel free to make a contribution. __________________ "Enemy submarines are to be called U-Boats. The term submarine is to be reserved for Allied under water vessels. U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs." Winston Churchill