Why don't targets zigzag?

[runyan99]

As in the title. Escorts zigzag in search patterns, but merchant vessels in convoy always run arrow straight courses until they are alerted by torpedo attack.

Is it not possible to program all ships to run zigzag courses, or has nobody bothered to do so? The Japanese always ran in some zigzag pattern in reality.

[The Fishlord]

Originally Posted by runyan99

As in the title. Escorts zigzag in search patterns, but merchant vessels in convoy always run arrow straight courses until they are alerted by torpedo attack.

Is it not possible to program all ships to run zigzag courses, or has nobody bothered to do so? The Japanese always ran in some zigzag pattern in reality.

I believe it's possible, I think RSDRC has them always zigzagging, I don't know if you've tried that or not.

[Suicide Charlie]

I'm running TMO + RSRDC and ships whether in convoys/fleets or alone will zig zag much more often. It seems like if your presence is even suspected they start zig zagging.

[Fearless]

Running RFB and RSRDC. Plenty of zig zagging when you're noticed.

[runyan99]

Sounds like you guys are getting spotted. The convoys should be zigzagging at all times, even before spotting a sub. Starting zigzag after the first torpedo attack isn't realistic.

[Carotio]

IMHO, the traffic should be scripted to have 50/50 zig-zag and straight running course, and that without your sub/uboat being discovered.
A straight run makes the ship/convoy arrive faster at destination, but is at higher risk. Zig-zag reduces the risk, but makes the voyage longer/slower. Hence a 50/50 part of each type.

That naturally forces more precise campaign scripting, but would make it worth while I guess.

[Fearless]

Originally Posted by runyan99

Sounds like you guys are getting spotted. The convoys should be zigzagging at all times, even before spotting a sub. Starting zigzag after the first torpedo attack isn't realistic.

Not necessarily. Slow convoys would loose too much speed and were then easy pickings. My believe is that convoys would commence zigzagging when instructed by the Lead merchant ship or by an Escort. In general they would sail straight in some kind of formation to keep maximum speed.

[Sailor Steve]

It sounds like we need to make a distinction. What the convoys do when spotted isn't zig-zagging, it's weaving, and that's something they didn't do.

After a sub has been detected the convoy would either a) change course away from the sighting, b) break up and run in different directions, to regroup later, or c) continue on course, since it takes time to reload torpedoes and it's already too late for any victims.

Zig-zagging is changing course along a baseline every every few hours. The whole convoy changes course in an attempt to be where submarines can't without surfacing. Very occassionally this will steer them right into the path of the waiting submarine. The biggest SH3 supermods have had their random layers changed to do this. I don't know about RSRD.

[runyan99]

Not necessarily. Slow convoys would loose too much speed and were then easy pickings. My believe is that convoys would commence zigzagging when instructed by the Lead merchant ship or by an Escort. In general they would sail straight in some kind of formation to keep maximum speed.

That's just not so. If you read the memoirs of the sub captains, every contact they made used a zig pattern, and analysing and timing that pattern was part of every approach and torpedo attack. There was no 50/50 about it.

The lack of zig plans greatly increases the ease of sinking large tonnage in game.

The only target I have read about so far that was not zigging was a Japanese sub on it's way into Rabaul harbor, with men in whites shining their shoes on the deck.

[Fearless]

Thanks for the clarification SailorSteve.

[Fearless]

Originally Posted by runyan99

That's just not so. If you read the memoirs of the sub captains, every contact they made used a zig pattern, and analysing and timing that pattern was part of every approach and torpedo attack. There was no 50/50 about it.

The lack of zig plans greatly increases the ease of sinking large tonnage in game.

The only target I have read about so far that was not zigging was a Japanese sub on it's way into Rabaul harbor, with men in whites shining their shoes on the deck.

Location! Location! I doubt the convoy would've zigzagged their way out of Tokyo Harbor!

[Zero Niner]

Well, in my experience (TMO + RSRDC) I've seen both convoys & lone ships zig away from me, often when I'm already in position waiting to ambush them, resulting in me having to re-intercept. And I'm pretty sure I haven't been spotted either, as the way the AI ships react when they are alerted to my presence is a characteristic "weave".

[tater]

Originally Posted by Fearless

Not necessarily. Slow convoys would loose too much speed and were then easy pickings. My believe is that convoys would commence zigzagging when instructed by the Lead merchant ship or by an Escort. In general they would sail straight in some kind of formation to keep maximum speed.

Real ZZ patterns were complex, and virtually all convoys would have ZZed the entire journey.

The patterns were not simple Z shapes, but almost sinusoidal looking.







The lack of any kind of realistic ZZing in SH is a major failing. Virtually all merchant shipping (warships, too) would ZZ in combat areas (which is everywhere given submarines). It can be added in the campaign layers, but it becomes unwieldy given the literally tens of thousands of added waypoints, not to mention the inability for the AI to really understand them.

"Organic" ZZ behavior would be a major game improvement. There might be a library of ZZ patterns like those above, and the waypoint would have a pull down to pick which pattern to use between waypoints (defaulting to "NONE.").

[Sailor Steve]

I'm glad somebody had actual documentation.

Wouldn't it be great to set up an intercept and watch them turn away at just the wrong moment? Or turn right towards their doom at just the right one?

Thanks tater.

[Fearless]

Thanks tater.