Targeting Problems

[Monk29]

Fellas,

New to sub simulators, I am coming over from FPSs. First off, thanks to Rockin Robbin, WernerSobe, and a host of "Old Timers" for thier training videos, posts and general support of us Noobs. If I had to rely on the manual, this game would have been in the garbage a week ago and I would be back to COD4 *cringe*

I am using manual targeting, and making some progress. However, I am running into a consistent problem with my solution. Despite being at, or about 90 degrees on my target, firing my torps at or about 0 degree, I am either missing by half a boat length to the rear, or just catching the targets ass. If I am not firing 5-10 degrees forward, I don't seem to have a chance. Range and speed aren't the issues, I am blowing this on the AOB, and my IQ is too low to grasp why. I believe I am following the correct targeting steps as outlined in my SubSim Training. If I am not sitting at exactly 90 degrees, do I fudge the launch, or is the sub's targeting gizmos supposed to be making the adjustments for me? What in the math, or targeting process I am missing?

Thanks

*You guys ruined Das Boot for me. Never seen it until I started playing this game and after having seen the "Das Boot plays SH4" videos on YouTube. I couldn't take the first 20 minutes serious because those videos were so damn funny.

[XLjedi]

If you're trying to use the simplified O'Kane 90° method...

When we talk about firing down a 0° torpedo track, that doesn't mean you point the aiming wire at 0°. If you do that, your torpedo won't track 0°, it'll veer to the left or right 5-10°. If you entered no solution at all... it'll track a straight line down the 0° gyro path, but you'd have to point the aiming wire with a 10°-20° lead for a better point of impact. In which case you've just totally ignored the TDC completely and you're playing as if WWI technology is all you have to work with.

To use the TDC, you'll need to setup a firing solution such that you'll be holding the aiming wire steady on about a 10° or 20° mark (depending on target speed) and then as points of interest pass the wire, you can fire and your torpedos should track a straight line to the target (0° gyro angle shot).

[Schroeder]

If you are using MK10 torpedoes you have to set the target's speed to 1 knot (1.5 at heavy seas) faster than it actually is. At least that's what I have to do here and then I hit straight where I want to.


MK14s should work fine with using the real speed of your target.

[Feltan]

Remember:

1. Do not turn the TDC on to track the target.

2. The interior angles of a triangle are 180 degrees:
a. Your approach is 90 degrees.
b. Your bearing to the target is (picking one) 20 degrees -- that is what your periscope should be at, and the line in the periscope becomes your "sight" just like a rifle. Fire the torpedoes as the target crosses the line.
c. The AOB of the target is 90 degrees minus whatever you pick in step b above. If you use 20 (or 340) degrees, the AOB will be 70 degrees either port or starbord depending on which way the ship is crossing your bow.

3. Set up for a 1000 yard shot. Sit there and wait. Adjust range to target to 1000 yards.

4. Be sure to "double pump" the data into the TDC. For some odd reason, the AOB never gets transmitted correctly with just one click.

If you do these things, and the target does not change course or speed, you should hit with darn near 100% of your torpedoes. Using this technique gives me well over a 90% hit rate.

Regards,
Feltan

Originally Posted by aaronblood

If you're trying to use the simplified O'Kane 90° method...

When we talk about firing down a 0° torpedo track...
you'll need to setup a firing solution such that you'll be holding the aiming wire steady on about a 10° or 20° mark (depending on target speed) and then as points of interest pass the wire, you can fire and your torpedos should track a straight line to the target (0° gyro angle shot).

What, exactly, is the relationship between speed and the 10° to 20° advance you enter when inputting range? From watching Rockin Robins Dick O'kane tutorials I had the impression that it didn't matter. I have had both great success and frustrating failure using this method and haven't been sure why I missed when it seemed like a sure thing. But hey, I'm a noob and I probably screwed up. I have been using 20° for all firing solutions. Does range matter? I am trying to fire at 5-600yds. I am pulling the range indicator as far to the right as it will go (1241yds).

[Feltan]

Originally Posted by Urge

Does range matter? I am trying to fire at 5-600yds. I am pulling the range indicator as far to the right as it will go (1241yds).

Yes it does.

There is a lot of "play" in this type of firing solution. Things don't need to be exact, and a certain amount of error is allowable. However, error adds up.

If you pull the range indicator all the way to the right, you are probably Ok for a 1000 to 1500 yard shot. If you are at 5-600, adjust the range to reflect that.

Regards,
Feltan

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by Feltan

Yes it does.

There is a lot of "play" in this type of firing solution. Things don't need to be exact, and a certain amount of error is allowable. However, error adds up.

If you pull the range indicator all the way to the right, you are probably Ok for a 1000 to 1500 yard shot. If you are at 5-600, adjust the range to reflect that.

Regards,
Feltan

No it doesn't...

I've said it almost til I'm blue in the face; a zero gyro angle shot is not influenced by distance. If the Earth we're a 2D flat plane, you could hit the target out to infinity.

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by Urge

What, exactly, is the relationship between speed and the 10° to 20° advance you enter when inputting range? From watching Rockin Robins Dick O'kane tutorials I had the impression that it didn't matter. I have had both great success and frustrating failure using this method and haven't been sure why I missed when it seemed like a sure thing. But hey, I'm a noob and I probably screwed up. I have been using 20° for all firing solutions. Does range matter? I am trying to fire at 5-600yds. I am pulling the range indicator as far to the right as it will go (1241yds).

Notice in the following plot of a Mark18 torpedo travelling at 30kts, if a ship (at any distance) is travelling at 6kts, 11° is the aiming point that would yield a 0° gyro angle intercept.



When you say you're using 20° what are you talking about? ...sounds like you're confusing aiming lead with the AoB input. In the example above, the AoB is like 80° Port. If you're using the O'Kane method your input for AoB is always either 80°S or 80°P for a target moving at 6kts. The AoB sharpens as the target speed increases because the aiming angle gets larger (like 20° instead of 11°).

[XLjedi]

Let's just make it really simple...

Forget the O'Kane method. It's just a way to make the TDC point close to a 0° gyro angle anyway, and if you're always going to take up a 90° position abeam the target true course, you might as well just ignore the TDC completly and just sail out of port with the default 0 speed 0° bearing settings. Ever accidentally launch a fish in port and notice how it swims straight out the bow of the sub? ...that's a perfect 0° gyro shot.

All you need now is the lead angle to position your aiming wire for various target speeds. A simple thumb-rule formula for a Mark18 doing 30kts aimed at targets traveling between 6 and 12kts would be: =2*S-1

That's 2 times the target speed minus 1. So for a ship doing 6kts its: 2*6-1 = 11°

So with a 0° gyro setting (torpedo swims straight) I'm in position (90° abeam the target course). The target is moving at 7kts. So I point my aiming wire at 2*7-1 = 13° and I wait. As a target point of interest passes my aiming wire (perhaps the smoke stack), I mash the launch button. ...fish swims out and smacks the target right under the stack.

Obviously, if the target approaches from the right, I'm leading 14° to the right (0+14 = 14°). If the target approaches from the left I'm leading 14° to the left (360-14 = 346°).

If you're using a torpedo with a different top speed, just give me the torpedo speed and I'll figure a new formula. I think there's a chart already done that has all the lead angles for various topedo/target speeds.

[Feltan]

Originally Posted by aaronblood

No it doesn't...

I've said it almost til I'm blue in the face; a zero gyro angle shot is not influenced by distance. If the Earth we're a 2D flat plane, you could hit the target out to infinity.

Calm down. We are talking about two different things.

The zero bearing attack, and the constant bearing attack (called the O'Kane method on these forums) are not the same.

Regards,
Feltan

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by Feltan

Calm down. We are talking about two different things.

The zero bearing attack, and the constant bearing attack (called the O'Kane method on these forums) are not the same.

Regards,
Feltan

They're the same... I was the one that explained to em how to do it. One of the main things Rockin Robbins always says is distance doesn't matter. Unless you're talking about a different O'Kane method. Actually, technically, we don't really do O'Kane and Morton justice with what we've come to call the O'Kane method. ...and I've also blasted em for blindly setting AoB to 90° when 75°-80° would introduce far less error. Is he still suggesting 90°? O'Kane's probably rolling in his grave...

Only reason I suggested calling it that was to give O'Kane a nod for his comment about how he learned from Morton to hold the bearing constant as target points of interest passed the aiming wire. Why not call it the Morton Method? ...all Morton was doing was carrying over a practice from WWI technology. O'Kane seemed to use it with the most success. It was really more of a thank you to O'Kane for passing the info along in his writings.

The only thing the TDC is really being used for in the O'Kane method is related to the fact that it already knows the torpedo speeds, so you don't need to look up the lead angle in a table. It's a shame if folks are using 90° for the AoB setting and introducing silly error, in an otherwise straightforward targetting method.

[Rockin Robbins]

The only thing that keeps a constant bearing in the Dick O'Kane attack is the constant bearing from the torpedo to the target. And since you're thankfully not aboard the torpedo to measure that.....there's a point there somewhere. In the Dick O'Kane attack the range absolutely has no bearing on the solution so long as the torpedo has the range to get as far as the target is away. It matters not if the target is 500 or 2500 yards away. The firing solution is the same. And I have hit targets 2500 yards away with it.

Actually ANY torpedo that will hit its target maintains its target on a constant bearing throughout its trip from acquiring course to impact. Therefore, from the point of view of the torpedo ALL attacks are constant bearing attacks.

Define constant bearing attack so I can understand why you're calling a Dick O'Kane attack that. I suggest you check out my tutorial video to ensure that you're right. I'm curious what you are talking about there!

[XLjedi]

I think he's referring to holding the aiming wire constant, ie constant bearing attack

Are you still suggesting people use a 90° AoB as the default for the O'Kane method. That should be like 75°.

[Rockin Robbins]

@aaronblood: My instructions now clearly state that the AoB is equal to 90 minus the lead angle. They've been that way for months, since our conversation after I posted the seminar tutorial and you explained how it was really a blown attack that worked because the solutions overlapped.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Urge

What, exactly, is the relationship between speed and the 10° to 20° advance you enter when inputting range? From watching Rockin Robins Dick O'kane tutorials I had the impression that it didn't matter. I have had both great success and frustrating failure using this method and haven't been sure why I missed when it seemed like a sure thing. But hey, I'm a noob and I probably screwed up. I have been using 20° for all firing solutions. Does range matter? I am trying to fire at 5-600yds. I am pulling the range indicator as far to the right as it will go (1241yds).

A couple of pictures will be worth 1000 words. Why does the range not matter in a Dick O'Kane (fleet boat or U-Boat) or Fast-90 (U-Boat) attack?


The green line is your lead angle for a certain target speed. As long as you fire the torpedo as the target passes the line you WILL hit the target at any range. Here four targets get four separately fired torpedoes and they all hit. The correctness of aaronblood's and my statements is obvious and beyond question. See?

Now, how are the lead angles calculated? How can you pick an appropriate lead angle? In practice for anything 12 knots and above I use 20º and a slow target at an average 6 knots gets a 10º lead angle with fast settings on Mark 14s. Here's a chart by gutted calculating the perfect lead angle so the torpedo strikes a ship at a perfect right angle if your course is at right angles to the track and you fire with a zero gyro angle (the torpedo goes straight up the zero bearing to the target).


These angles are rounded to the nearest half degree. There is a problem here. American torpedoes have a very high dud ratio when striking at exactly 90º. It is actually useful to use a slightly different lead angle than the chart indicates and hit the target before or after he bears dead ahead. Let me explain. Our target is moving at 12 knots. The chart says fire the torp up the zero bearing and shoot at 14½º lead angle. But if we do that, the torpedo hits at a perfect right angle and might probably be a dud.

Let's enter the 12 knots into the TDC speed. Now we'll purposely pick a 20º sighting angle and press send range/bearing. The TDC figures out the lead angle from that and fires the torpedo up the 20-14½º or 5½º bearing. The torpedo strikes the target at 90-5½ =84½º and it is much more likely to explode. I could draw it out, but I hope that isn't necessary.

This should lay to rest any doubts you might have and let you understand why we dispense with the chart altogether and just ballpark our lead angles. The speed input into the TDC determines the course the torpedo takes anyway. Our lead angle only serves to let us input the correct AoB and aim with the crosshair for the exact part of the ship we wish to harm.