Sinking Fishing Boats - Bad Form?

siber · 04-16-08, 03:29 AM

Hi guys & gals!

Here's a connundrum for you all. Fishing boats: Should you sink them, or take pity and decide that 90t isn't worth an expensive torpedo paid for by tax-payers.

On the one hand, it's 1940, the fishermen aren't armed, Germany's romping across Europe, and it's not as if they're carrying 'war supplies' (fish?). Sinking the fishermen would surely be morally wrong. It goes against all the German ideals of chivalry. I should save the torpedo for a more worthwhile target.

On the other, the sooner Britain starves, the sooner she capitulates. Potentially, the fishermen are six weeks training away from being soldiers, sailors or airmen, and I may not even find another proper target before I have to head back to base anyway. Use the torp, sink the fishing boat, take 90t and help starve Britain into submission while depriving her of manpower.

Should I sink the fishing boat? I'm at 90 deg. AOB, 650m out, submerged. It's pootling along at 8kts and hasn't got a clue... What do you do?

Uncle Goose · 04-16-08, 03:38 AM

I never would waste an eel to one but the deckgun does marvelous things to a fishing boat. Don't forget that IRL fishing boats were equipped with a radio and most likely would send a message with the location of the sighting making it for London easier to track submarines. If you read the logs of U-boat captains you often encounter sinking's of small crafts like sailing vessels and fishing boats. They are fair game if they belong to the enemy because they will rat you out.

Platapus · 04-16-08, 05:34 AM

From a moral standpoint I can understand your concerns. It is a dicey question that every Kaluen needs to answer for themselves.

Sinking a fishing boat is probably no more or less immoral than sinking an unarmed cargo/passenger ship.

From a tactical standpoint, I can also understand your concerns. Fishing boats may have radio sets. Since we can't always tell, for the purpose of the argument we will assume that the fishing boat has a radio.

So a Kaluen is faced with a few options.

1. Avoid the fishing boat so they have no chance to use their radio
2. Attack the fishing boat submerged with a torpedo with some chance of blowing them up before they can send an SSS
3. Attack the fishing boat on the surface with deck gun and AAA with little chance of sinking them before they can send an SSS

Option two is not attractive. Using a torpedo to sink a fishing boat is not an efficient use of a torpedo. Torpedoing fishing boats, especially in rough weather, can be tricky as they have such a short length your aiming error angle is very tight. Fishing boats also have shallow drafts do your depth error angle is also very tight. Weather that would normally not cause your torpedo to miss a merchant, may cause you to miss a fishing boat. Additionally the displacement of the fishing boat is not very high and BdU wants tonnage. Even if you do hit the fishing boat, you can't guarantee that an SSS won't be sent.

This leaves options 1 and 3.

If we are concerned with naval and air patrols, keeping our presence concealed is the best way we can survive to sink our enemy (merchant shipping). Taking Option 3, removes this concealment and will, with high probability allow the enemy to know that your submarine is in the area. This in itself won't especially endanger your submarine. but it is information you are volunteering to the enemy. What are you getting in return for your gift? a 90 ton fishing boat. What about that juicy C3 just over the horizon that is now changing course? It is all about risk and payoff.

The chances of having your surface battle interrupted by air cover is also something to consider.

In many cases, fishing boats are a lot like aircraft. Are they worth fighting?

This leaves option 1 for consideration.

There is the emotional factor in making it difficult to "allow" a fishing boat to pass by unmolested. However, we in the KM and especially in the U-boats are military professionals. We do not attack through emotions, but according to military logic. Is it really in the best interest of my mission to take the time and risk (not only the risk to my boat but the risk of other merchant shipping being alerted) to sink a fishing boat?

Conversely, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Normally we would not let a small merchant ship go past in hopes that a larger merchant ship will come along. But is there a limit to this train of thought?

So morally I don't think there is any difference between sinking a fishing boat and sinking an unarmed cargo/passenger ship.

Tactically, I will only sink a fishing boat on my return trip when I am already out of torpedoes. Even than, the fishing boat needs to be in the perfect position or most likely I will cruise by.

It is going to be a long war.

SmokinTep · 04-16-08, 06:41 AM

I've attacked them before with the deck gun and before it sunk, a destroyer was heading for the scene.

Vacillator · 04-16-08, 08:13 AM

Deck gun - perhaps in certain circumstances. Torpedo - not worth it. Just my opinion of course, formulated with no 'moral factor' in this case.

danurve · 04-16-08, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vacillator

Deck gun - perhaps in certain circumstances. Torpedo - not worth it. Just my opinion of course, formulated with no 'moral factor' in this case.

In one instance I dogged a Fishing boat with a DD in hydrophone range. Shot up the boat untill it was almost done and used it to lure the DD into range of a nice Homing torpedo.

Kipparikalle · 04-16-08, 09:47 AM

War is cruel, you just have to live with it.

Sink em' and reprieve the surviving sailors with machinegun if they are far away from land.

predavolk · 04-16-08, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vacillator

Deck gun - perhaps in certain circumstances. Torpedo - not worth it. Just my opinion of course, formulated with no 'moral factor' in this case.

Phaedrus · 04-16-08, 12:48 PM

I wouldn't put a torpedo into it, but I live by the golden rule:

If it zig-zags, it's up to no good.

Surface, and see what happens.
I figure if they think they're a worthwhile target, I might as well sink em.

Practice your gunnery.
But be quick, they will probably have some help on the way. (Yet another reason to sink them)

KeptinCranky · 04-16-08, 01:42 PM

If it's afloat and carries a Union Jack it's wrong....

remedy the error I say....

Keelbuster · 04-16-08, 02:00 PM

If you can dive without being spotted, then that's worth it. If they spot you, expect planes and local DDs to come looking. If I'm spotted by one, then I make sure that the boat's not around to spot other subs. I sink her with a straffing of AA fire. No need for torpedoes or valuable deckgun shells. Just rip through that spindly wood hull with some 20mm AA.

Frank0001 · 04-16-08, 02:03 PM

Personally, I wouldn't attack it. Fishing boats had nothing to do with the war. The men working on them were usually elderly, since the younger men would've already been drafted.
Surely the men would be patriotic, and report any U-boats when sighted. However, they fish for a living, not for the war.
And after all, the tonnage is usually too few to spend a torpedo on.

And, the Führer orders that no other than military targets be attacked. (That is, in the beginning of the war)

GoldenRivet · 04-16-08, 02:35 PM

My policy is to steer around fishing boats and yachts, or submerge to avoid detection.

i will only attack it if detected (ie. they start zig zagging) my theory is that they could possibly compromise my position... i HAVE had destroyers come rushing from afar when a fishing boat started zig zagging. my only guess was that he called them over.

depending on what degree of a realism spin you want to put on it, look at it this way.

These are fisherman and all they care to do is head out and catch fish and return to port with their haul. the difference between them and these merchants in my eyes is that the merchants are carrying vital war goods to the enemy; weapons, oil, fuel, ammo etc. it could be argued that fish feeds the enemy, but with so much rationed i would imagine fish is fetching a high price at civilian markets and is mostly going to feed mothers and children who's fathers are out in the battles.

it would be most noble to let them sail on. besides the two or three shells you spend on a tiny fishing boat might be the two or three shells which might later make the difference between sinking merchant or having to watch her sail off with moderate damage.

your the commander and the call is yours to make, but aboard my boat:

...we dont attack yachts, fishing boats, neutrals, hospital ships, or life rafts unless beyond the shadow of any doubt our safety is likely to be compromised by NOT sinking them.

siber · 04-16-08, 02:44 PM

I like your thinking GoldenRivet. I figure that a Passenger/Cargo may have some special war-winning weapon or research hidden in its hold and is therefore fair game. A fishing boat? Fairly unlikely it's god anything more valuable than cod onboard.

As it was, it didn't even know I was there as I submerged only 3:15 (for a speed measurement!) after the lookouts first spotted it 11km off. I let it on it's way. In future though if one detects me, zig-zags and I'm surfaced, I'll probably rake it with 20mm.

Chivalry lives on!

p.s. Life rafts??? Where do you spot these?

GoldenRivet · 04-16-08, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siber

In future though if one detects me, zig-zags and I'm surfaced, I'll probably rake it with 20mm.

Chivalry lives on!

p.s. Life rafts??? Where do you spot these?

exactly as i would do... seems like the right thing anyhow.

life rafts are in SH4, but there is a VERY promising life raft mod over in the SH3 mods section under construction right now.

as soon as it appears released im going for it!!!

EDIT: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=134988

theres a link... the mod really starts to shine from about page 6 onwards

04-16-08, 03:29 AM	#1
siber Planesman Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Salford, Manchester, UK Posts: 182 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Sinking Fishing Boats - Bad Form? Hi guys & gals! Here's a connundrum for you all. Fishing boats: Should you sink them, or take pity and decide that 90t isn't worth an expensive torpedo paid for by tax-payers. On the one hand, it's 1940, the fishermen aren't armed, Germany's romping across Europe, and it's not as if they're carrying 'war supplies' (fish?). Sinking the fishermen would surely be morally wrong. It goes against all the German ideals of chivalry. I should save the torpedo for a more worthwhile target. On the other, the sooner Britain starves, the sooner she capitulates. Potentially, the fishermen are six weeks training away from being soldiers, sailors or airmen, and I may not even find another proper target before I have to head back to base anyway. Use the torp, sink the fishing boat, take 90t and help starve Britain into submission while depriving her of manpower. Should I sink the fishing boat? I'm at 90 deg. AOB, 650m out, submerged. It's pootling along at 8kts and hasn't got a clue... What do you do? __________________ Using GWX 3.0 at 100% realism, OLC's 'Ubermod' & Torpdamagefinal

04-16-08, 05:34 AM	#3
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,362 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	From a moral standpoint I can understand your concerns. It is a dicey question that every Kaluen needs to answer for themselves. Sinking a fishing boat is probably no more or less immoral than sinking an unarmed cargo/passenger ship. From a tactical standpoint, I can also understand your concerns. Fishing boats may have radio sets. Since we can't always tell, for the purpose of the argument we will assume that the fishing boat has a radio. So a Kaluen is faced with a few options. 1. Avoid the fishing boat so they have no chance to use their radio 2. Attack the fishing boat submerged with a torpedo with some chance of blowing them up before they can send an SSS 3. Attack the fishing boat on the surface with deck gun and AAA with little chance of sinking them before they can send an SSS Option two is not attractive. Using a torpedo to sink a fishing boat is not an efficient use of a torpedo. Torpedoing fishing boats, especially in rough weather, can be tricky as they have such a short length your aiming error angle is very tight. Fishing boats also have shallow drafts do your depth error angle is also very tight. Weather that would normally not cause your torpedo to miss a merchant, may cause you to miss a fishing boat. Additionally the displacement of the fishing boat is not very high and BdU wants tonnage. Even if you do hit the fishing boat, you can't guarantee that an SSS won't be sent. This leaves options 1 and 3. If we are concerned with naval and air patrols, keeping our presence concealed is the best way we can survive to sink our enemy (merchant shipping). Taking Option 3, removes this concealment and will, with high probability allow the enemy to know that your submarine is in the area. This in itself won't especially endanger your submarine. but it is information you are volunteering to the enemy. What are you getting in return for your gift? a 90 ton fishing boat. What about that juicy C3 just over the horizon that is now changing course? It is all about risk and payoff. The chances of having your surface battle interrupted by air cover is also something to consider. In many cases, fishing boats are a lot like aircraft. Are they worth fighting? This leaves option 1 for consideration. There is the emotional factor in making it difficult to "allow" a fishing boat to pass by unmolested. However, we in the KM and especially in the U-boats are military professionals. We do not attack through emotions, but according to military logic. Is it really in the best interest of my mission to take the time and risk (not only the risk to my boat but the risk of other merchant shipping being alerted) to sink a fishing boat? Conversely, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Normally we would not let a small merchant ship go past in hopes that a larger merchant ship will come along. But is there a limit to this train of thought? So morally I don't think there is any difference between sinking a fishing boat and sinking an unarmed cargo/passenger ship. Tactically, I will only sink a fishing boat on my return trip when I am already out of torpedoes. Even than, the fishing boat needs to be in the perfect position or most likely I will cruise by. It is going to be a long war. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

04-16-08, 02:00 PM	#11
Keelbuster Ace of the Deep Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: BA 72 Posts: 1,092 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	If you can dive without being spotted, then that's worth it. If they spot you, expect planes and local DDs to come looking. If I'm spotted by one, then I make sure that the boat's not around to spot other subs. I sink her with a straffing of AA fire. No need for torpedoes or valuable deckgun shells. Just rip through that spindly wood hull with some 20mm AA. __________________

04-16-08, 02:03 PM	#12
Frank0001 Chief Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 317 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	Personally, I wouldn't attack it. Fishing boats had nothing to do with the war. The men working on them were usually elderly, since the younger men would've already been drafted. Surely the men would be patriotic, and report any U-boats when sighted. However, they fish for a living, not for the war. And after all, the tonnage is usually too few to spend a torpedo on. And, the Führer orders that no other than military targets be attacked. (That is, in the beginning of the war) __________________ Snipers of the Seas One eel - one Kill Last edited by Frank0001; 04-16-08 at 06:14 PM.

04-16-08, 02:35 PM	#13
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	My policy is to steer around fishing boats and yachts, or submerge to avoid detection. i will only attack it if detected (ie. they start zig zagging) my theory is that they could possibly compromise my position... i HAVE had destroyers come rushing from afar when a fishing boat started zig zagging. my only guess was that he called them over. depending on what degree of a realism spin you want to put on it, look at it this way. These are fisherman and all they care to do is head out and catch fish and return to port with their haul. the difference between them and these merchants in my eyes is that the merchants are carrying vital war goods to the enemy; weapons, oil, fuel, ammo etc. it could be argued that fish feeds the enemy, but with so much rationed i would imagine fish is fetching a high price at civilian markets and is mostly going to feed mothers and children who's fathers are out in the battles. it would be most noble to let them sail on. besides the two or three shells you spend on a tiny fishing boat might be the two or three shells which might later make the difference between sinking merchant or having to watch her sail off with moderate damage. your the commander and the call is yours to make, but aboard my boat: ...we dont attack yachts, fishing boats, neutrals, hospital ships, or life rafts unless beyond the shadow of any doubt our safety is likely to be compromised by NOT sinking them. __________________

04-16-08, 03:38 AM	#2
Uncle Goose Torpedoman Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 113 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	I never would waste an eel to one but the deckgun does marvelous things to a fishing boat. Don't forget that IRL fishing boats were equipped with a radio and most likely would send a message with the location of the sighting making it for London easier to track submarines. If you read the logs of U-boat captains you often encounter sinking's of small crafts like sailing vessels and fishing boats. They are fair game if they belong to the enemy because they will rat you out.

04-16-08, 06:41 AM	#4
SmokinTep Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Suffolk, Virginia Posts: 1,027 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I've attacked them before with the deck gun and before it sunk, a destroyer was heading for the scene.

04-16-08, 08:13 AM	#5
Vacillator Frogman Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 307 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Deck gun - perhaps in certain circumstances. Torpedo - not worth it. Just my opinion of course, formulated with no 'moral factor' in this case.

04-16-08, 09:47 AM	#7
Kipparikalle Samurai Navy Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Finland Posts: 580 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	War is cruel, you just have to live with it. Sink em' and reprieve the surviving sailors with machinegun if they are far away from land.

04-16-08, 12:48 PM	#9
Phaedrus A-ganger Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 79 Downloads: 45 Uploads: 0	I wouldn't put a torpedo into it, but I live by the golden rule: If it zig-zags, it's up to no good. Surface, and see what happens. I figure if they think they're a worthwhile target, I might as well sink em. Practice your gunnery. But be quick, they will probably have some help on the way. (Yet another reason to sink them)

04-16-08, 01:42 PM	#10
KeptinCranky Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,050 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	If it's afloat and carries a Union Jack it's wrong.... remedy the error I say....

04-16-08, 02:44 PM	#14
siber Planesman Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Salford, Manchester, UK Posts: 182 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	I like your thinking GoldenRivet. I figure that a Passenger/Cargo may have some special war-winning weapon or research hidden in its hold and is therefore fair game. A fishing boat? Fairly unlikely it's god anything more valuable than cod onboard. As it was, it didn't even know I was there as I submerged only 3:15 (for a speed measurement!) after the lookouts first spotted it 11km off. I let it on it's way. In future though if one detects me, zig-zags and I'm surfaced, I'll probably rake it with 20mm. Chivalry lives on! p.s. Life rafts??? Where do you spot these? __________________ Using GWX 3.0 at 100% realism, OLC's 'Ubermod' & Torpdamagefinal