German raider Kormoran located

TarJak · 03-16-08, 01:59 AM

It looks like the wreck of the Kormoran has been located. Hopes are high that HMAS Sydney will be found nearby...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...tion=australia

Venatore · 03-16-08, 06:05 AM

I really prey they find HMAS Sydney, for the sake of all the families who await word. It's all good to see the German vessel "Kormoran" was also located for the exact same reason, families of the German ship now have a resting place of their loved ones.

CCIP · 03-16-08, 01:55 PM

That really was a dramatic (and oft-forgotten) story of WWII. Indeed it's excellent that we're getting close to having closure to it!

AntEater · 03-16-08, 02:00 PM

HSKs have always been a favorite topic of mine, and the Sydney-Kormoran battle is certainly one of the most fascinating and mysterious engagements of WW2.
I own a book (ghost?)written by KKpt Detmers after the war, in which he explains the battle in detail, and also a lot of points regarding the outfitting and every day operations of a merchant raider.

Some quite ironic points:
- Kormoran's guns were WW1 "veterans", gun #6 was installed on the Battlecruiser SMS Seydlitz during the battle of Jutland
- Kormoran posed as the dutch freighter MV Straat Malakka. In 1947, the crew of Kormoran was repatriated to Germany on the actual MV Straat Malakka....
Talk about sailor's superstition.
But why Sydney went down with all hands was never really explained. When the germans were rescued so swiftly, they assumed this was because the survivors of Sydney had alerted australian authorities. Sadly, this was not the chase.

Jimbuna · 03-16-08, 02:35 PM

Was posted over 2 hours earlier here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=133161

Mind you, I do believe this is the correct forum (GT) for such a thread.

TarJak · 03-16-08, 05:48 PM

I can't be online all the time, unlike some people I know.

Got beaten to the punch on this one as well!

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=133215

bookworm_020 · 03-16-08, 07:18 PM

Already there is a fight (again!

) Over the hadleing of HMAS Sydney on that day!

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...602195057.html

Does it realy matter that much! It would be more of an intrest to find out how she sunk and why no one survived.

Jimbuna · 03-17-08, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bookworm_020

Already there is a fight (again!

) Over the hadleing of HMAS Sydney on that day!

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...602195057.html

Does it realy matter that much! It would be more of an intrest to find out how she sunk and why no one survived.

I suppose it's inevitable when such controversial circumstances are debated.

I wonder if the truth will ever fully be known :hmm:

AntEater · 03-17-08, 03:39 PM

On the surface, the Kormoran Survivor, who is AFAIK the last surviving officer, has a point.
Problem is, only on the surface.
He cites the correct method how the RN successfully dealt with raiders, how Pinguin and Atlantis were sunk.
In both chases, RN cruisers made use of their superior fire control to open fire at long range. The raiders with their WW1 guns and verbal fire control could not effectively respond. Rogge of the Atlantis scuttled and survived to save Hamburg in 1961 while Krüder of the Pinguin had his mine load blowing up on him and his allied POWs.
Burdett on the Sydney did not open fire at long range like HMS Dorsetshire or HMS Devonshire, but rather closed in.
It seems like he violated standard procedure, while in fact he did not.

Problem is, this long range firing on Atlantis and Pinguin (and later on unarmed blockade runners) was NOT how the RN dealt with a SUSPECTED raider, but rather a pre planned intercept and destruction of a CONFIRMED raider due to Ultra intercepts.
Except for Kormoran, not a single german raider was sunk in a chance encounter.
Thor survived three chance encounters with RN vessels, but those were armed merchant cruisers, not regular warships and sank one of them.
Each time the AMC acted quite similarly to Sydney, and each time the result was similar down to the fact that the german raider did not linger to observe results but rather fled the scene as fast as possible.
The only thing that made engagement ranges in 2 of three of Thor's battles with AMCs longer was that Thor was not as successful as Kormoran in keeping that masquerade intact until the last moment. That allowed 2 of the 3 AMCs to survive damaged.
This shows that Sydney's behaviour was not as unusual as one might think.
The more succesful actions against german raiders can all be put down to Ultra, while without Ultra, every allied warship showed a cautious approach like HMAS Sydney.
Re the bracket shooting, I'm not a fire control officer, but maybe something went utterly wrong in the chaos.

03-16-08, 01:59 AM	#1
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	German raider Kormoran located It looks like the wreck of the Kormoran has been located. Hopes are high that HMAS Sydney will be found nearby... http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...tion=australia

03-16-08, 01:55 PM	#3
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	That really was a dramatic (and oft-forgotten) story of WWII. Indeed it's excellent that we're getting close to having closure to it! __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

03-16-08, 02:00 PM	#4
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	HSKs have always been a favorite topic of mine, and the Sydney-Kormoran battle is certainly one of the most fascinating and mysterious engagements of WW2. I own a book (ghost?)written by KKpt Detmers after the war, in which he explains the battle in detail, and also a lot of points regarding the outfitting and every day operations of a merchant raider. Some quite ironic points: - Kormoran's guns were WW1 "veterans", gun #6 was installed on the Battlecruiser SMS Seydlitz during the battle of Jutland - Kormoran posed as the dutch freighter MV Straat Malakka. In 1947, the crew of Kormoran was repatriated to Germany on the actual MV Straat Malakka.... Talk about sailor's superstition. But why Sydney went down with all hands was never really explained. When the germans were rescued so swiftly, they assumed this was because the survivors of Sydney had alerted australian authorities. Sadly, this was not the chase. __________________

03-16-08, 02:35 PM	#5
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,473 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Was posted over 2 hours earlier here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=133161 Mind you, I do believe this is the correct forum (GT) for such a thread. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

03-16-08, 07:18 PM	#7
bookworm_020 Navy Seal Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sinking ships off the Australian coast Posts: 5,966 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Already there is a fight (again!) Over the hadleing of HMAS Sydney on that day! http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...602195057.html Does it realy matter that much! It would be more of an intrest to find out how she sunk and why no one survived. __________________ "There is always one person in any organization who knows whats going on, That person must be fired"

03-16-08, 06:05 AM	#2
Venatore Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Australia:- Sydney Posts: 2,049 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 0	I really prey they find HMAS Sydney, for the sake of all the families who await word. It's all good to see the German vessel "Kormoran" was also located for the exact same reason, families of the German ship now have a resting place of their loved ones.

03-16-08, 05:48 PM	#6
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	I can't be online all the time, unlike some people I know. Got beaten to the punch on this one as well! http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=133215

03-17-08, 03:39 PM	#9
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	On the surface, the Kormoran Survivor, who is AFAIK the last surviving officer, has a point. Problem is, only on the surface. He cites the correct method how the RN successfully dealt with raiders, how Pinguin and Atlantis were sunk. In both chases, RN cruisers made use of their superior fire control to open fire at long range. The raiders with their WW1 guns and verbal fire control could not effectively respond. Rogge of the Atlantis scuttled and survived to save Hamburg in 1961 while Krüder of the Pinguin had his mine load blowing up on him and his allied POWs. Burdett on the Sydney did not open fire at long range like HMS Dorsetshire or HMS Devonshire, but rather closed in. It seems like he violated standard procedure, while in fact he did not. Problem is, this long range firing on Atlantis and Pinguin (and later on unarmed blockade runners) was NOT how the RN dealt with a SUSPECTED raider, but rather a pre planned intercept and destruction of a CONFIRMED raider due to Ultra intercepts. Except for Kormoran, not a single german raider was sunk in a chance encounter. Thor survived three chance encounters with RN vessels, but those were armed merchant cruisers, not regular warships and sank one of them. Each time the AMC acted quite similarly to Sydney, and each time the result was similar down to the fact that the german raider did not linger to observe results but rather fled the scene as fast as possible. The only thing that made engagement ranges in 2 of three of Thor's battles with AMCs longer was that Thor was not as successful as Kormoran in keeping that masquerade intact until the last moment. That allowed 2 of the 3 AMCs to survive damaged. This shows that Sydney's behaviour was not as unusual as one might think. The more succesful actions against german raiders can all be put down to Ultra, while without Ultra, every allied warship showed a cautious approach like HMAS Sydney. Re the bracket shooting, I'm not a fire control officer, but maybe something went utterly wrong in the chaos. __________________