What Remains to be seen

[-Pv-]

I would like to see the following fixes to SH4:
1) Props spinning the correct direction (or reverse the pitch on the model.)
2) Fix the visual boyancy model so the keel is not exposed at max sea state. This may require reducing the number of wave polygons at max sea state.
3) When the bow is suspended over a wave, the boat should pitch down (instead of the current surfboard effect.)
4) Do not assign the same voice to navigator and helmsman (to prevent what sounds like the double orders confirmation.)
5) Replace the high pitched voice that sounds like a 12 year old.

I will be more interested in purchasing the add-on if these issues get addressed in a patch. For me, the current game is playable without any interface changes and I already got tired of 5 years of only having U-boats to play, so the add-on is not pulling on me real hard if I don't get to see these remaing eye sores addressed. Not complaining, just being picky how I spend my money and time.
-Pv-

[Paajtor]

Originally Posted by -Pv-

2) Fix the visual boyancy model so the keel is not exposed at max sea state. This may require reducing the number of wave polygons at max sea state.
3) When the bow is suspended over a wave, the boat should pitch down (instead of the current surfboard effect.)

Did you see this thread?

[vickers03]

5) Replace the high pitched voice that sounds like a 12 year old.

just copy one of the speech folders 1-9 over the one that is annoying.

4) Do not assign the same voice to navigator and helmsman (to prevent what sounds like the double orders confirmation.)

could be done the same way, e.g. copy navigator files from
one folder into the other:hmm:

1) Props spinning the correct direction (or reverse the pitch on the model.)

wasn't there a mod for this..?

[swdw]

Hope this makes sense, my brain is foggy from the flu.

Not always true- this depends on the frequency of the waves. Most of the times in SH$ there are 3 crsts along the hull. Each is it's own support point. So when the bow is extended past the crest of a wave there is enough support on the rest of the hull to prevent all but minor pitching.


Problem is with the one in red, jus as the two crests move further back on the hull to where the bow starts to drop, the next wave hits the bow and keeps it from dropping much.

The effect you want requires a reduced frequency in the wave crests so you have a wider trough between waves. THe next remarks refer to this very crude picture:


Looking at the pic, the wave frequency for the top 2 illustrations is too high, and the center of gravity is never far enough past a point of support to allow a severe pitch. In the upper left, the hull is supported evenly at 3 points. In the upper right, although there are only 2 waves supporting the boat, before the lead wave gets past the CG of the hull (Green dot), another wave is now at the bow and lifts it before it can drop too far.

In the lower section is an example with low frequency waves. You'll get much mor severe pitching in this situation.

Notice in the lower right the wave crest is past the center of the hull which means the bow would be pitching down. The swells are almost as long as the hull and this causes the pitching motion you are looking for.

In addition you have things like the angle of the swell face and backside and the effects of waves riding on the swell which will change the pitching motion.

To me the real culprit is not the boats but the pattern for the wave swells in game.

I explained this in another thread w/o the diagrams and discussed the fact that pitching depends on

The ability to ride up and down a wave is dependent upon:
1. The wave height
2. the trough width
3. The angle and length of the face of the wave
4. the wave frequency
5. Ship length
6. Ship Bouyancy /CG

The aforementioned relationship of waves and ship type is the reason a large ship can cut through a wave a trawler has to climb up and down. What everyone thinks of as large swells in the SH series may have height, but the other variables are incorrect to allow the boat to ride up and down the wave. Get those correct and the boats will pitch more and do so realistically.

[-Pv-]

I understand the dynamics. I have also tried the file. Altough there is a small lowering of the model in the water, there are other aspects resulting from this small change which I think is better in the original. The deck awash control is eliminated or greatly reduced and submerged propulsion performance is greatly reduced. The model is harder to control submerged and several knots are removed from propulsion performance. I can live with the surfaced visual appreance in the original if it means I can keep the awash and submerged performance in the stock model.
-Pv-

[Ducimus]

An alternate method of producing waves that "look good" (not neccessarly realistic as swdw describes), is to simply take waves amplitude in the sim.cfg, and multiply it by 2.

At least i think it was the attunement. Theres two variables.

One is 0.2 the other is 0.75.. take the 0.2 and make it 0.4. Then take the surface draft on all your subs and lower them a little., and make the GC_Height in all subs to stock values (to prevent overrocking), lower the visual wave factor setting in the sim.cfg from 4 to 3, and Use this scenario on a scene.dat with stock wave settings, and there you go, problem "solved". Its not neccessarily correct in real world terms, but it does look better. I did this in TMO, and everyone whos tried it and said something about it seemed to like it.

As an aside, adjusting either of those two wave settings in the sim.cfg is NOT something to be taken lightly if. Its a small change, but a very drastic one, as it changes visual detection, and if you go overboard, you can make ships blow up in rough seas and all sorts of assorted weirdness, to even hampering your ability to charge batteries.

[swdw]

Before I go on, keep in mind the draft mod wsa developed for RFB so it focuses on realism. My answers will be from that perspective.I think Ducimus has a less stringent version he's dveloped of the mod for TM.

If th answer seems testy, I apologize ahead of time as I'm still fighting the flu and not thinking like normal.

Originally Posted by -Pv-

other aspects resulting from this small change which I think is better in the original. The deck awash control is eliminated or greatly reduced and submerged propulsion performance is greatly reduced.

As it should be, the boats work too well under water in stock. For example the turning speed of a standard fleet boat submerged at 4 knots should only be 0.45 deg/sec and 1 deg/sec at 8 knots with full rudder applied. Those are real life numbers.

You have a heck of a lot more drag submerged so if you are at a flank bell and throw the rudder hard in either direction, you should lose speed you can't recover until you straighten the rudder out. At other speeds you should have to increase turns to maintain speed in sharp turns. Neither of which happens in stock (you can't see engine RPM increase but you can see speed dip and then recover, as it would in real life).

Originally Posted by -Pv-

The model is harder to control submerged and several knots are removed from propulsion performance. I can live with the surfaced visual appreance in the original if it means I can keep the awash and submerged performance in the stock model.
-Pv-

As far as submarine propulsion performance being greatly reduced ther are 2 changes in this mod and it depends on what you are talking about. If it's the fact the boat travels at lower speeds than stock for 1/3, 2/3 and std, this has nothing to do with performance, but is due to changing the bell settings to match the nautical useage/determination of these. If it's the decreased acceleration rate, again, this performance was tweaked to match real world numbers we have on the acceleration rate for a fleet boat. So, in that case, you are completely correct, but again, the performace was tweaked towards realism because of the basis of this mod. If its the fact that atd bell is 10 knots instead of 14, this is not a decrease in performance, just an adjustment to mimic real world settings.

Harder to control or just slower to respond? The response of the boats was over board in stock and was toned down to make more realistic. If you play with the boat after a while, you learn the dynamics of how it responds. Jiust like learning how to control a plane in a flight sim (but it takes a LOT less time to get the hang of controlling the boat). People went through training on how to handle a boat, so it should take at least a little practice in a mod geared towards realism for you to get the hang of it.

As for the decks awash with fleet boats, I'll just make use this quote form a site sponsored by the US Submarine Veterans of WWII Association:

Diving:
Diving was done daily in order to adjust the trim of the boat and to determine the salinity of the water at different depths. A war time dive could be completed in 30 seconds. A submarine going into a dive causes a shifting of the center of gravity and the center of buoyancy. The metacenter is a point where the center of gravity of the boat coincides with the center of buoyancy; a very hazardous point which must be passed quickly. If the center of gravity and the center of buoyancy are coincident and if a wave were to hit the boat from the side, capsizing could occur. Those Hollywood movies where a submarine is shown with decks awash, making an approach on the surface is mostly fiction. That is about where the two centers become coincident and it doesn't take much to roll the boat over.

In other words, it should be darn difficult to control the boat in a decks awash mode.

As I mentioned- Check with Ducimus, he "modified the mod" when he made it part of TM adn I think it has more of what you're looking for.

And when you do, thank him for doing so. He sure deserves it.

I have no problems with people changing the mod characteristics for what they prefer. Just please don't do so and then say it's more "realistic".

[Rip]

Originally Posted by swdw

Before I go on, keep in mind the draft mod wsa developed for RFB so it focuses on realism. My answers will be from that perspective.I think Ducimus has a less stringent version he's dveloped of the mod for TM

As it should be, the boats work too well under water in stock. For example the turning speed of a standard fleet boat submerged at 4 knots should only be 0.45 deg/sec and 1 deg/sec at 8 knots with full rudder applied. Those are real life numbers.

You have a heck of a lot more drag submerged so if you are at a flank bell and throw the rudder hard in either direction, you should lose speed you can't recover until you straighten the rudder out. At other speeds you should have to increase turns to maintain speed in sharp turns. Neither of which happens in stock (you can't see engine RPM increase but you can see speed dip and then recover, as it would in real life).

Harder to control or just slower to respond? The response of the boats was over board in stock and was toned down to make more realistic. If you play with the boat after a while, you learn the dynamics of how it responds. Jiust like learning how to control a plane in a flight sim (but it takes a LOT less time to get the hang of controlling the boat). People went through training on how to handle a boat, so it should take at least a little practice in a mod geared towards realism for you to get the hang of it.

As for the decks awash with fleet boats, I'll just make use this quote form a site sponsored by the US Submarine Veterans of WWII Association:

Diving:
Diving was done daily in order to adjust the trim of the boat and to determine the salinity of the water at different depths. A war time dive could be completed in 30 seconds. A submarine going into a dive causes a shifting of the center of gravity and the center of buoyancy. The metacenter is a point where the center of gravity of the boat coincides with the center of buoyancy; a very hazardous point which must be passed quickly. If the center of gravity and the center of buoyancy are coincident and if a wave were to hit the boat from the side, capsizing could occur. Those Hollywood movies where a submarine is shown with decks awash, making an approach on the surface is mostly fiction. That is about where the two centers become coincident and it doesn't take much to roll the boat over.

In other words, it should be darn difficult to control the boat in a decks awash mode.

As I mentioned- Check with Ducimus, he "modified the mod" when he made it part of TM adn I think it has more of what you're looking for.

And when you do, thank him for doing so. He sure deserves it.

This very true to even submarines being built today. As the center of gravity crosses the center of bouyancy is a depth of the least stability concerning rolling.

Rolling sub=bad

[-Pv-]

Slower dive response and more difficult control with the resulting loss of cruise and submerged endurance with only marginal improvement in visual bouancy effects detracts me from this mod. My research convinces me the surface, submerged endurance, battery charge, submerged and surfaced cruise as well as dive times are well within historical averges for the subs modeled and the devs have done their work well. I don't want to change these things.

I understand the problem of too many points at the wrong time for supporting the boyancy modeling, but it's also more complicated than that. There is wave distance averaging going on both laterally and longitudonally which causes the model to sense and react to peaks a great distance from the sub rather than close by only. For these reasons, mods by third party will only ever at best be able to apply part solutions while the devs with control over the entire code model will be able to correct more than one problem without sacrificing historical performance. The increase in wave poligons over what was used in SH3 in order to produce a greater wow effect with this release is very nice in nearly calm weather, but the effect breaks down as the wave height increases.

As far as whether something should be hard or easy... I'm the commander of the sub. I do not have my hands on the dive and trim controls. I order people to carry out the command (which I have made for strategic reasons- not because it's easy or hard to do.) My crew are all at the top level of expertise now in my current stage of compaign, and I expect them to carry out my orders to the best of their ability, not to fail 100% of the time because the thing is hard. We all know in the stock game setting the depth to obtain deck awash does not result in holding that exact depth 100% of the time, and indeed an occassional wave might even shut the main induction for a few moments occassionally. Stock game performance with better wave riding is what I want and if it takes some coding by the devs to accomplish that, then that's what I want. If they never do anything to fix it, then fine. I also realize some major adjustment to the sighting system would also have to be made because they rely on distance averaging to determin if you get sighted based on wave height. I don't HAVE to look at the external view of my sub to play the game, so I can take it of leave it. I just made the request of the devs for the reasons stated.
-Pv-