The Nature of a Predator

DavyJonesFootlocker · 02-07-08, 06:50 AM

I was thinking (yeah, I do that sometimes) whether attacking a convoy is better or going after single ones. I concluded in my feeble mind that going for the lone ship is better. I was studying the common denominator of animal hunters and they often go for weak, easy victims. Why should subs be any different? Going after convoys is a risky business as we all know. If it's merely recon that's ok. But evading a DD screen is hard and the outcome dubious at best. Or maybe not so dubious as you may very likely be dead. So on patrol I found that the lone merchant ship is almost a surety with a deck gun (in TM at least) or torp. Bloody call me anti-social, but parties ain't my thing.

Torplexed · 02-07-08, 06:56 AM

Yeah. But animal hunters rarely need more than one prize to feed. You're trying to help win a war. Mutiple targets mean possible mutiple sinkings. The quicker you unload those torpedoes, the quicker you can get back home to stock up on more. Plus, those ships sailing alone historically should become harder and harder to find.

DavyJonesFootlocker · 02-07-08, 07:24 AM

They are harder to find. But you build up tonnage faster with lone ships. Your chances of getting killed attacking convoys is greater. And being dead won't help the war effort. For instance I got close to 10000 tons with those 2 ships. If I did that with a convoy what are the chances of getting those? Not with a screen of 4 DDs and a whole bunch of Subchasers.

AkbarGulag · 02-07-08, 07:45 AM

While I concur that lone ships are safer for tonnage... isn't there a thrill in 'wounding' a convoy, then slipping away, just to outsmart them as they try and continue to their destination... only to pop up 50km or so later just to 'wound' them some more... There's satisfaction in watching the numbers dwindle over several days of chase, I like to imagine the terror of the sailors on board as they watch their friends being picked off, seemingly without mercy. Not that I have anything against those sailors, but i'm an American sub Commander and this is WWII. Just imagine the morale of the Japanese Imperial Navy, knowing their DD's are not enough to stop the carnage. Then imagine the morale of the merchant navy, when they know the Imperial Navy just can't protect them. All of this contributes to the wars outcome and should not be underestimated.

Afterwards, just before I clean the Nav map of all those wonderful X's, lines and circles, I can re-live the thrill as I see the litany of confirmed kills stretched over 100's of kilometres... knowing, I was smarter than they were.... our navy is better than theirs, and we are going to win

DavyJonesFootlocker · 02-07-08, 08:01 AM

Yes the thrill.

I forgot.

DrBeast · 02-07-08, 08:04 AM

Shoot to thrill, as Angus Young and company would put it

AkbarGulag · 02-07-08, 08:06 AM

I'm manning the planes, and your attaching limpet mines in your frog suit.. and i'm talking about 'thrill' :p Whats wrong with this picture

I guess there's a thrill in popping up unsuspecting on a lone merchant, just to enjoy the merciless pounding of your deck gun and listening to the screams

DavyJonesFootlocker · 02-07-08, 08:23 AM

...and Dr. Beast is da Boss but just don't call me Kermit Da Frog!:rotfl:

Hmmm. AC/DC. Thunder From Down Under!

"Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap!"

AkbarGulag · 02-07-08, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavyJonesFootlocker

Hmmm. AC/DC. Thunder From Down Under!

"Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap!"

Haha, i'm a Kiwi, but we see Australians as our cousins in many ways. BTW, I got to see Supultura in concert here in Auckland in my younger years... It was so loud I had to order my maccas with hand signals afterwards

One guy in the que before the concert even yelled out 'POISON'. I have never seen so many people go so quiet so fast!! Lucky he was jokeing... being about 6ft 5in and built like a brick ****house probably helped him as well

DavyJonesFootlocker · 02-07-08, 10:48 AM

Wow, would love to see Sepultura (the old line up that is). I'm located not so far from Brazil. Got most of their CDs. As for Poison Bret Michaels is now a reality star on VH-1.

I used to shout OZZY! at ANY venue.

I was skinny back then but lucky for me the local crowds were non-violent. Besides who is gonna pounce on me at a Senior Citizens Tea Party, huh?

Fishie · 02-07-08, 11:46 AM

Best thing in the the world- setting up a 6 ship keel shot.

Find the one in the middle, use your gyro angle to send 'em after the others.

Holy crow, the carnage can get bad. If you do it right, you have 6 ships burning (or breaking

) all within 10 seconds of each other.

Drop a decoy, and follow your shots in under the layer.

Change course to match mean course of the convoy.

Fox is in the henhouse, and the dogs are having no luck finding you.

Once you're done reloading a couple of tubes, come to silent run, and drift up to take a peek.

Finish off the old kills with the stern tubes, generate new kills with the bows.

Rinse, repeat

Berinhardt · 02-07-08, 07:39 PM

I think there is merit to both approaches, but in "real life" there are some trade offs to consider:

1 - Attacking lone ships presents less risks to the sub and crew - while subs can be replaced (given time and resources), experienced crews are invaluable. Given the choice of losing subs and crews for high value (?)targets, and consistently sinking unescorted supply ships and merchants at little risk, the admirality will eventually a) choke the supply lines b) force the enemy to expend resources building escorts, training crews, and expending 3 times the fuel on each supply run. Within a short time, the US should have a significant numerical advantage and can run German style "wolfpacks" against larger protected convoys.

2. From a torpedo effeciency standpoint, you can sink freighters and tankers with a single torp and a few rounds from the deck gun. Expending 2 torpedos (or more) to sink escorted freighters or 4-6 for combat targets (battleships/carriers/cruisers) cuts your time on station and results in less total tonnage sunk.

3 - Attacking convoys and large capital ships can change the tide of the war, and can give the US advantages, (less carriers, battleships, and cruisers to fight later) but if you lose even 25% of subs you attempt it, you will always be at a disadvantage. Better to have the sub call in the contact, and coordinate an attack with aircraft and surface units, or even another sub. Hitting a convoy on the front and back simultaneously could be very demoralizing for the enemy.

4) Sinking freighters and tankers limits production on the mainland and makes it more difficult for Japan to build more warships.

While sinking large escorted convoys is more fun (who doesn't love sinking a carrier of battleship!) the risk/reward equation is off balance. And tactically it makes more sense to go after the oil tankers and supply ships. Battleships and Carriers are useless without fuel.

Oil was the reason Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in the first place - in 1940, the United States imposed an oil embargo on Japan during its war with China. Destroying the 7th Fleet at Pearl was supposed to cripple the ability of the U.S. to enforce the embargo. As an interesting twist of fate, if the attack at Pearl had sent an additional wave to take out the oil tanks at Hickam Field, all of our subs (and carriers) would have been useless for 6 months or more.

Historically, the advantages the U.S. had over Japan is that the Imperial Navy was stuck in the Mahanian doctrine and the lure of "decisive battle", and didn't prioritize the protection of its supply lines "The desire for a quick, decisive victory led Tokyo to neglect unglamorous but vital dimensions of operations such as logistics and personnel policy. Because its leadership assumed that a war with America would be decided by a few decisive battles, the Japanese ignored such capabilities as commerce protection and antisubmarine warfare, deficiencies which became crippling vulnerabilities in a long war of attrition" http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/ijn.htm

It would be interesting if the game actually limited the ships instead iof respawing during a campaign, and modeled your effectiveness in the overall war effort. At the opening of the Pacific War in 1941, the Japanese Combined Fleet comprised 10 battleships; 10 aircraft carriers; 38 cruisers, heavy and light; 112 destroyers; 65 submarines; and numerous auxiliary warships of lesser size. I would love to play scenarios both ways: Hunt the carriers and battleships, or hunt tankers and supply ships.

As a side note, if you want to hunt unescorted freighters all day long, just park your sub a few miles south of Tokyo harbor just east of Izu Oshima (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izu_%C5%8Cshima). For escorted battle groups, go west of Izu Oshima between the island the mainland. ;-)

AkbarGulag · 02-08-08, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berinhardt

It would be interesting if the game actually limited the ships instead iof respawing during a campaign, and modeled your effectiveness in the overall war effort. At the opening of the Pacific War in 1941, the Japanese Combined Fleet comprised 10 battleships; 10 aircraft carriers; 38 cruisers, heavy and light; 112 destroyers; 65 submarines; and numerous auxiliary warships of lesser size. I would love to play scenarios both ways: Hunt the carriers and battleships, or hunt tankers and supply ships.

I think you scared everyone off... I can just imagine the guys here saying "Damn, i'll need my glasses for this one"

Thats a very interesting proposition Berinhardt, a dynamic campaign. Even the end date would be in flux.... Say for example, you have to completely destroy the enemy surface fleet to obtain victory. You would have to work out how much your mates are sinking out there though, then delete tonnage of ships as needed. I would hate to have to find the last boat, but thats what code-breakers are for

Probably be really great in a hyperthetical type campaign, like a cold-war Silent Hunter. But would still be great in a WWII environment also, you could determine the outcome of the war... even have the Japanese as a playable faction for an extra dimension and more content.

Berinhardt · 02-08-08, 02:21 PM

Speaking of running a coordinated campaign, and other subs...

Play as a single player in SH4, I was chasing an escorted convoy just north of Izu Oshima in Tokyo Bay, and couldn't catch them submerged, so I sprinted south of Izu Oshima from the east side of the island and then cut West to try to head them off.

Whan I popped out on the South West corner of Izu Oshima there were 3 lifeboats in the water and no sign of the convoy!!!!

So what happened to the convoy? I didn't engage ships or aircraft on my way there...

Are there other active US subs modeled in the game?

Where did these liferafts come from?

The Fishlord · 02-18-08, 07:04 PM

It happens sometimes if you track a convoy close to land, or go into a very crampt harbor.

The simple answer is...they ran aground.

Once you aquire the convoy, if you stay with it, you can often see it run aground near its destination. They make no attempt to go around it.

The same thing happened when I snuck into a New Guinea port to target some CV's...there were three DDs. Two Akizuki, one Fubuki. I sank the Fubuki...I was worried about the others until I saw two columns of smoke on the horizon. Closer inspection revealed two of the best DD the Japanese had cracked in half on the rocks.

Even with airplanes this happens; if there are high enough mountains, the planes will just crash right into them.

02-07-08, 06:50 AM	#1
DavyJonesFootlocker The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stink Drunk in Trinidad Posts: 1,572 Downloads: 138 Uploads: 0	The Nature of a Predator I was thinking (yeah, I do that sometimes) whether attacking a convoy is better or going after single ones. I concluded in my feeble mind that going for the lone ship is better. I was studying the common denominator of animal hunters and they often go for weak, easy victims. Why should subs be any different? Going after convoys is a risky business as we all know. If it's merely recon that's ok. But evading a DD screen is hard and the outcome dubious at best. Or maybe not so dubious as you may very likely be dead. So on patrol I found that the lone merchant ship is almost a surety with a deck gun (in TM at least) or torp. Bloody call me anti-social, but parties ain't my thing. __________________ "Silence means death. Stand on your feet. Inner fear your worst enemy."- Sepultura. My Silent Hunter 5 mantra is this......"Torpedo missed, sir!" A P-400 is a P-40 with a Zero after it. A proud member of the Wikipedia Haters Club

02-07-08, 06:56 AM	#2
Torplexed Let's Sink Sumptin' ! Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 5,823 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	Yeah. But animal hunters rarely need more than one prize to feed. You're trying to help win a war. Mutiple targets mean possible mutiple sinkings. The quicker you unload those torpedoes, the quicker you can get back home to stock up on more. Plus, those ships sailing alone historically should become harder and harder to find. __________________ --Mobilis in Mobili--

02-07-08, 07:24 AM	#3
DavyJonesFootlocker The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stink Drunk in Trinidad Posts: 1,572 Downloads: 138 Uploads: 0	They are harder to find. But you build up tonnage faster with lone ships. Your chances of getting killed attacking convoys is greater. And being dead won't help the war effort. For instance I got close to 10000 tons with those 2 ships. If I did that with a convoy what are the chances of getting those? Not with a screen of 4 DDs and a whole bunch of Subchasers. __________________ "Silence means death. Stand on your feet. Inner fear your worst enemy."- Sepultura. My Silent Hunter 5 mantra is this......"Torpedo missed, sir!" A P-400 is a P-40 with a Zero after it. A proud member of the Wikipedia Haters Club

02-07-08, 07:45 AM	#4
AkbarGulag Samurai Navy Join Date: May 2007 Location: cfgdatsimZOMGddstgasns Posts: 571 Downloads: 21 Uploads: 1	While I concur that lone ships are safer for tonnage... isn't there a thrill in 'wounding' a convoy, then slipping away, just to outsmart them as they try and continue to their destination... only to pop up 50km or so later just to 'wound' them some more... There's satisfaction in watching the numbers dwindle over several days of chase, I like to imagine the terror of the sailors on board as they watch their friends being picked off, seemingly without mercy. Not that I have anything against those sailors, but i'm an American sub Commander and this is WWII. Just imagine the morale of the Japanese Imperial Navy, knowing their DD's are not enough to stop the carnage. Then imagine the morale of the merchant navy, when they know the Imperial Navy just can't protect them. All of this contributes to the wars outcome and should not be underestimated. Afterwards, just before I clean the Nav map of all those wonderful X's, lines and circles, I can re-live the thrill as I see the litany of confirmed kills stretched over 100's of kilometres... knowing, I was smarter than they were.... our navy is better than theirs, and we are going to win __________________ "6 days into his patrol, the first enemy ship was spotted... a trawler... ...It was at this point, Captain AkbarGulag realised how green his crew was..."

02-07-08, 08:01 AM	#5
DavyJonesFootlocker The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stink Drunk in Trinidad Posts: 1,572 Downloads: 138 Uploads: 0	Yes the thrill. I forgot. __________________ "Silence means death. Stand on your feet. Inner fear your worst enemy."- Sepultura. My Silent Hunter 5 mantra is this......"Torpedo missed, sir!" A P-400 is a P-40 with a Zero after it. A proud member of the Wikipedia Haters Club

02-07-08, 08:04 AM	#6
DrBeast The Old Man Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Somewhere Out In Space Posts: 1,408 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	Shoot to thrill, as Angus Young and company would put it __________________ Let the Beast inside you free!

02-07-08, 08:06 AM	#7
AkbarGulag Samurai Navy Join Date: May 2007 Location: cfgdatsimZOMGddstgasns Posts: 571 Downloads: 21 Uploads: 1	I'm manning the planes, and your attaching limpet mines in your frog suit.. and i'm talking about 'thrill' :p Whats wrong with this picture I guess there's a thrill in popping up unsuspecting on a lone merchant, just to enjoy the merciless pounding of your deck gun and listening to the screams __________________ "6 days into his patrol, the first enemy ship was spotted... a trawler... ...It was at this point, Captain AkbarGulag realised how green his crew was..."

02-07-08, 08:23 AM	#8
DavyJonesFootlocker The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stink Drunk in Trinidad Posts: 1,572 Downloads: 138 Uploads: 0	...and Dr. Beast is da Boss but just don't call me Kermit Da Frog!:rotfl: Hmmm. AC/DC. Thunder From Down Under! "Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap!" __________________ "Silence means death. Stand on your feet. Inner fear your worst enemy."- Sepultura. My Silent Hunter 5 mantra is this......"Torpedo missed, sir!" A P-400 is a P-40 with a Zero after it. A proud member of the Wikipedia Haters Club

02-07-08, 10:48 AM	#10
DavyJonesFootlocker The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stink Drunk in Trinidad Posts: 1,572 Downloads: 138 Uploads: 0	Wow, would love to see Sepultura (the old line up that is). I'm located not so far from Brazil. Got most of their CDs. As for Poison Bret Michaels is now a reality star on VH-1. I used to shout OZZY! at ANY venue. I was skinny back then but lucky for me the local crowds were non-violent. Besides who is gonna pounce on me at a Senior Citizens Tea Party, huh? __________________ "Silence means death. Stand on your feet. Inner fear your worst enemy."- Sepultura. My Silent Hunter 5 mantra is this......"Torpedo missed, sir!" A P-400 is a P-40 with a Zero after it. A proud member of the Wikipedia Haters Club

02-07-08, 11:46 AM	#11
Fishie Loader Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 82 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	Best thing in the the world- setting up a 6 ship keel shot. Find the one in the middle, use your gyro angle to send 'em after the others. Holy crow, the carnage can get bad. If you do it right, you have 6 ships burning (or breaking ) all within 10 seconds of each other. Drop a decoy, and follow your shots in under the layer. Change course to match mean course of the convoy. Fox is in the henhouse, and the dogs are having no luck finding you. Once you're done reloading a couple of tubes, come to silent run, and drift up to take a peek. Finish off the old kills with the stern tubes, generate new kills with the bows. Rinse, repeat __________________ One fish, two fish, three fish, BOOM! Fishie, Commander SS-215 Fear the Growler!

02-07-08, 07:39 PM	#12
Berinhardt Seaman Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 37 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Predator I think there is merit to both approaches, but in "real life" there are some trade offs to consider: 1 - Attacking lone ships presents less risks to the sub and crew - while subs can be replaced (given time and resources), experienced crews are invaluable. Given the choice of losing subs and crews for high value (?)targets, and consistently sinking unescorted supply ships and merchants at little risk, the admirality will eventually a) choke the supply lines b) force the enemy to expend resources building escorts, training crews, and expending 3 times the fuel on each supply run. Within a short time, the US should have a significant numerical advantage and can run German style "wolfpacks" against larger protected convoys. 2. From a torpedo effeciency standpoint, you can sink freighters and tankers with a single torp and a few rounds from the deck gun. Expending 2 torpedos (or more) to sink escorted freighters or 4-6 for combat targets (battleships/carriers/cruisers) cuts your time on station and results in less total tonnage sunk. 3 - Attacking convoys and large capital ships can change the tide of the war, and can give the US advantages, (less carriers, battleships, and cruisers to fight later) but if you lose even 25% of subs you attempt it, you will always be at a disadvantage. Better to have the sub call in the contact, and coordinate an attack with aircraft and surface units, or even another sub. Hitting a convoy on the front and back simultaneously could be very demoralizing for the enemy. 4) Sinking freighters and tankers limits production on the mainland and makes it more difficult for Japan to build more warships. While sinking large escorted convoys is more fun (who doesn't love sinking a carrier of battleship!) the risk/reward equation is off balance. And tactically it makes more sense to go after the oil tankers and supply ships. Battleships and Carriers are useless without fuel. Oil was the reason Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in the first place - in 1940, the United States imposed an oil embargo on Japan during its war with China. Destroying the 7th Fleet at Pearl was supposed to cripple the ability of the U.S. to enforce the embargo. As an interesting twist of fate, if the attack at Pearl had sent an additional wave to take out the oil tanks at Hickam Field, all of our subs (and carriers) would have been useless for 6 months or more. Historically, the advantages the U.S. had over Japan is that the Imperial Navy was stuck in the Mahanian doctrine and the lure of "decisive battle", and didn't prioritize the protection of its supply lines "The desire for a quick, decisive victory led Tokyo to neglect unglamorous but vital dimensions of operations such as logistics and personnel policy. Because its leadership assumed that a war with America would be decided by a few decisive battles, the Japanese ignored such capabilities as commerce protection and antisubmarine warfare, deficiencies which became crippling vulnerabilities in a long war of attrition" http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/japan/ijn.htm It would be interesting if the game actually limited the ships instead iof respawing during a campaign, and modeled your effectiveness in the overall war effort. At the opening of the Pacific War in 1941, the Japanese Combined Fleet comprised 10 battleships; 10 aircraft carriers; 38 cruisers, heavy and light; 112 destroyers; 65 submarines; and numerous auxiliary warships of lesser size. I would love to play scenarios both ways: Hunt the carriers and battleships, or hunt tankers and supply ships. As a side note, if you want to hunt unescorted freighters all day long, just park your sub a few miles south of Tokyo harbor just east of Izu Oshima (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izu_%C5%8Cshima). For escorted battle groups, go west of Izu Oshima between the island the mainland. ;-) __________________ ================\|================== Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat. John Lehman (1942 - ), Secretary of the Navy, 1981-1987 Last edited by Berinhardt; 02-07-08 at 08:18 PM.

02-08-08, 02:21 PM	#14
Berinhardt Seaman Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 37 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Campaign Speaking of running a coordinated campaign, and other subs... Play as a single player in SH4, I was chasing an escorted convoy just north of Izu Oshima in Tokyo Bay, and couldn't catch them submerged, so I sprinted south of Izu Oshima from the east side of the island and then cut West to try to head them off. Whan I popped out on the South West corner of Izu Oshima there were 3 lifeboats in the water and no sign of the convoy!!!! So what happened to the convoy? I didn't engage ships or aircraft on my way there... Are there other active US subs modeled in the game? Where did these liferafts come from? __________________ ================\|================== Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat. John Lehman (1942 - ), Secretary of the Navy, 1981-1987

02-18-08, 07:04 PM	#15
The Fishlord Planesman Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 185 Downloads: 119 Uploads: 0	It happens sometimes if you track a convoy close to land, or go into a very crampt harbor. The simple answer is...they ran aground. Once you aquire the convoy, if you stay with it, you can often see it run aground near its destination. They make no attempt to go around it. The same thing happened when I snuck into a New Guinea port to target some CV's...there were three DDs. Two Akizuki, one Fubuki. I sank the Fubuki...I was worried about the others until I saw two columns of smoke on the horizon. Closer inspection revealed two of the best DD the Japanese had cracked in half on the rocks. Even with airplanes this happens; if there are high enough mountains, the planes will just crash right into them.