Shallow water ops?

[MarkShot]

Unlike other games (AOD and SHCE), it seems with the SH3/SH4 engine when you attack, the AI has a pretty good fix on your initial position. In these other games, it is possible with a well planned attack followed by displacing that the escorts have little chance to pick you up. However, it seems in SH3 that the escorts always start with a good idea of where you are when you shoot. So, rather than disengaging, you are mainly dealing with detection and breaking contact.

I understand that the SH3 and SH4 engines are very similar.

Where I see this as really being an issue is in shallow water ops, since you can attack in the shallows if you can displace and never really be located. However, if you are located, then trying to break contact is very hard and dangerous. In the Pacific War, there were lots of engagements in the shallows. So, I was wondering how well does SH4 model that? Do players attack in the shallows like the Formosa Straight or do players due to engine behavior stick with deep water for safety?

Thanks.

[Rockin Robbins]

Mark 14 torpedoes (and Mark 23 as well) leave a trail of bubbles behind. So when the enemy hears the explosion all they have to do is look at the line of bubbles leading right back to..... you. If you were to make a shot from a long distance on slow speed and move away immediately after the torpedoes leave the tube, with scope down, you MIGHT avoid detection. However, if you went too fast they would hear you. They WILL start up the sonar immediately upon detonation of the torpedo and in shallow water you will have no thermal barrier.

Let's put it this way. Upon the identification of the U-Who, U-869, off New Jersey in 230' of water or so, a German sub vet said the equivalent of "Poor suckers. In such shallow water they had no chance at all." What's that tell you about the reality of SH3 and SH4 compared to the other games you played?

In spite of the necessity of breaking contact I have successfully attacked in as little as 100' of water, evading the escort until he ran out of depth charges and then attacking him. I just spent a whole cruise in Formosa Straits and attacked several convoys there. It was deep enough for a thermal barrier, but thermal barriers are a very cold blanket giving very weak comfort.

[MarkShot]

Is there are real layer in SH4? In SH3, there is no layer. However, SH3 Commander simulates a layer with each launch. If you are below the simulated layer, then you are absolutely safe.

SH4 is different? How does SH4's layer work?

Thanks.

[Rockin Robbins]

The artificial SH3 layer just shuts off sonar access below a certain level. That's called arcade level and I surely wouldn't be caught using it. The fact that you do not know exactly what the depth of the level is doesn't help much.

In SH4 they actually simulated a thermal layer. This layer isn't a soundproof door though. It only attenuates sound, it does not shut it off. It might make you harder to detect at silent running or let you run a little faster without being detected. It will shorten the detection range. But if you have three DDs up there, one on top of you, another off to the side pinging, and the third wandering around with too many depth charges, that thermal barrier and a dollar might buy you a cup of coffee if you're careful where you try it. I have been at 445' below a thermal layer at 260' and been badgered to death. As a matter of fact that is my situation in my career right now. It's three against one and they've got my number. Unfortunately for them, about an hour ago it was four against one and they had my number.

I'm doing the twisty turnies, running out from under any charges dropped my way and trying to get all three behind me so I can show em my fanny to sneak away. Then I'll come up to periscope depth and see if I can give one a bloody nose or surface and end-around if I get really lucky. That's the only way I'll get to the merchies they guard with this convoy because the escorts are darn good this time.

Trigger Maru + Run Silent Run Deep + Natural Sinking Mechanics

[MarkShot]

Well, maybe I will try the escorts then sometime in SH4. I have it, but not installed at the moment. I thought I would give it another year of modding and see if it got patched again.

I play SH3/GWX2, AOD, and SHCE. As far as escort difficulty goes, in particular breaking contact once detected, I think AOD has the hardest escorts I have seen.

The trick you mention which I often do with SHCE, is virtually impossible to pull off with AOD. That is baiting the escorts such that you can force a group attack which causes them to mainly end up in one quadrant with evading in the opposite direction. In AOD, they form a circle, coordinate, and take turns attacking. Thus, at the point that you reach about 5 escorts in AOD, there is no longer an escape window to slip through. In SHCE, you still have a chance pulling them all off to one quadrant. That's why in AOD it is so critically important to learn the art of attacking followed by displacing and disengaging without ever being detected. That's what keeps you alive. If you should be detected, then you need to break contact as quick as possible while their numbers are still low, since each minute brings you close to being completely encircled.

[Rockin Robbins]

It's a way of life with max 3 kt silent speed and 30 knot escorts. Life is tough in WWII subs of either side. We get our licks, they get theirs.

You know, waiting for patches is a losing proposition. You could be enjoying the greatest sub simulation ever right now. I loved the game even in patch 1.2 and it's twice as good now. Come on in, the water's warm!

[Quillan]

The longer the time between firing and impact, the greater your chances of getting away without being detected. I've made a couple of attacks at ~8000 yards (not by choice, it was the only chance I'd get) and since it took about 8 minutes between firing and impact I had plenty of time after firing to dive deep and maneuver away. In shallow water you can't dive deep, but still long range shots make it more likely for you to evade. Of course, they're harder.

[MarkShot]

Yep, increasing the time to impact is important.

Next, increasing your initial distance from the escorts is important, since that also buys time.

Finally, I know in SH3/SH4, the AI has hearing that rivals modern towed arrays, but in AOD immediately after shooting that is when a well timed deep dive and sprint can save you. You have maybe a 4-8 minutes that you can run at high speed before they get close enough to track you. So, you want to put distance between where you shot from (since that is where they will look) and where you are when they reach that location.

Also, you should have your escape route selected. Usually, heading under the convoy and exiting out the back is a decent idea. The escorts if they don't have too good idea of where you shot from will assemble for the search on the side of the convoy upon which the fish struck.

When they get close after you have slowed to 1kts, you go as deep as you can for as long as your compressed air can keep you from flooding (about one hour). That will make it harder for them.

If you did it right, rather than getting a few HSS LOBs surrounding you, they will be mainly off to one side and they where appear to oscillate back on forth. That means that they have picked another location and are circling it and not you! You should get to hear depth charges in the distance.

Then, you just crawl quietly away.

[Rockin Robbins]

Quillan, I shoot to kill. Get in under 800 yards, loose two, one for the bow and one for the stern, dive and pay the price, then come back and do it all over again. If we're gonna get depth charged anyway, might as well have something to show for it besides just empty torpedo tubes.


Now if the sun will just hurry up and go down!!! Looks like party time tonight.

[Snuffy]

Do a search on the forums here for posts by Ducimus ... he has a very well illustrated post on how sonar/radar works.

And as he and others have said, the thermal layer is not a door to block, but rather a screen that makes it harder for you to be detected.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Originally Posted by MarkShot

Well, maybe I will try the escorts then sometime in SH4. I have it, but not installed at the moment. I thought I would give it another year of modding and see if it got patched again.

SH4 as it stands it quite enjoyable now . There are some great mods, with many more come I am sure.


RDP

[DavyJonesFootlocker]

I've been sneaking into enemy harbors in shallow waters all the time. No one sees me in day or night. When DDs depth-charges me they are somewhat ineffective. Perhaps the depth has something to do with it. In external view I saw one DC just bump off the conning tower.

[Captain Vlad]

I hate shallow water, but you can pull off successful attacks there. A recent misadventure in the Celebes Sea had me using the periscope at flank speed underwater so I could see the looming shape of the destroyer. I would then turn away from him and watch him drop his charges behind me.

After a real-time hour of this, I got into 100 feet of water or more, and after his lastest run, went to 1 knot and silent running about the same time the DCs went off. Crawled away at minimum speed, and when I upped scope a while later to see if I was clear, I could see his superstructure jutting over the horizon. He was sitting there waiting on me to make a noise.