Rating WWII subsims old and new

[MarkShot]

{I am hoping that this forum can handle this post. I know that the SH3 forums would probably crucify me for not find SH3/GWX as the highest form of sub evolution that has or will ever exist for the U-boat.}

I recently posted the following on a private discussion forum. At the risk of igniting an oil tanker, here it is in public. My primary intention was to look at the heart of these game and the game play aspect.

I've played all three within the last month. Too often, I think SH3/GWX is a "hands down" winner simply on graphics alone. However, the classics are easily playable on today's new new machines with XP/DOSBOX or Vista/DOSBOX. I plan to be playing a lot of WWII sub sims in 2008 and I will tell you that I plan to be enjoying of the following which have been rated. I may also add SH3/NYGM and SH3/WAC; possibly give SH4+mods a try too.

Graphics: SH3/GWX, SHCE, AOD

Sound: SH3/GWX, SHCE, AOD

Other:

(1) If you are not fond of 3D stations, then the 2D stations of SHCE are the best.

(2) The sonar station of SH3/GWX although not being as steeped in realism as SC/DW creates tremendous atomosphere where as AOD and SHCE only provide situational awareness.

(3) The map and charting features of SH3 are unparalled.

(4) If you into role playing, then SH3's crew management has what you need.

(5) AOD provides for real wolfpacks and the radio is really alive in AOD. You can report convoys and get orders detailing you to shadow and finally attack as part of the pack.

I am getting close to the point of being able to
rate these games (hardest to easiest, left -> right):

Finding convoys: AOD, SH3/GWX, SHCE

Tracking convoys: SHCE, SH3/GWX, AOD

Surface screen penetration: SH3/GWX, SHCE, AOD

Surface attack: SH3/GWX, SHCE, AOD

Submerged screen penetration: AOD, SH3/GWX, SHCE

Submerged attack: SH3/GWX, AOD, SHCE

Undetected evasion: AOD, SHCE, SH3/GWX

Detected evasion: AOD, SHCE, SH3/GWX

Automated TDC: SH3/GWX, SHCE, AOD

Manual TDC: SH3/GWX, SHCE, AOD

[Chad]

No mention of Silent Hunter 2! Despite the many problems it had, I consider it one of my favorite subsims based on the fact that it's the one that really drew me into subsims, and this great community, along with the WolfPack League, really showed me what a good game could be.

It has came a long way from it's release, and I still play it from time to time.

I think it deserves a honorable mention, or best multiplayer award with Destroyer Command!

[MarkShot]

Sorry, but I only rated those which I am actually playing at the moment.

Feel free to talk up its strong points. I personally feel that despite the brilliant work done by the PA team, it was severly hampered by its own internal design and bugs. The worst being the inability to save and reload a patrol.

[Sailor Steve]

SH2 was turned from a buggy mess into a very good game, especially in the multiplayer area with Destroyer Command. Unfortunately, in spite of all the great graphics and sound mods (the Das Boot Sound Mod was created for it) and the marvelous on/off-line campaigns (Iblitz and Atlantik come to mind), no-one was ever able to fix the one game-killing flaw: the absolute lack of a dynamic career mode. You were stuck with FPS-type 'levels'; die on any level, or fail to achieve the goals, and you repeated that level. That was it, no more.

As to your ratings, Mark, I think SH3 wins on other levels as well. Please remember that my experience is old, as I haven't been able to play for some time. I used some of the files - mainly the campaign layers for the harbor traffic and such - from the original GW, but I've never played GWX.

While some dismiss graphics as 'eye candy' (and to a point I agree), there is something about SH3 that is more than just immersive. For want of a better word, I'll call it 'mood'. SH3 has a certain mood that makes it more real. Or maybe I just like looking at all the ships as I leave the harbor. AOD may (or may not) actually have better gameplay, but SH3 makes me feel like I'm actually on the water, not just playing a great sim.

I was going to comment on the different functions you rated, but I think I'll end instead by saying that, while I love those older games, SH3 has me hooked and loving it. I likely won't go back.

[MarkShot]

Steve,

I will grant you that the sounds and graphics of SH3/GWX are so good that they are more than just "eye candy", they are immersive in their own right.

If one compares SH3's graphics to SC/DW, then I think you have the difference between poor quality eye candy and high quality immersive graphics. I can play SC/DW without any external views and feel that I am missing nothing. Not so with SH3/GWX.

Of course, going external is a bit of a dilemma for me, since I never flew external in flight sims. But unlike a flight sim, you really totally miss the graphics in SH3 if you don't go external, since all you get with internal is watching the swells from the bridge and scope view. I only wish SH3 scored higher in a few of the other categories, since I feel that if I want challenging and ruthless escorts that I must look elsewhere.

But I don't mind playing all three of these games. They each offer different things and suggest different realities of tactics.

SH2/PA was an amazing feat achieved by the modders. In some ways, they accomplished relatively more than GWX did. The PA Team took a dry linear campaign and made it into a dynamic one. It was pure genious. Now, escorts were one again weak. Perhaps, the weakest ever seen in the Silent Hunter series. But being forced to complete an entire patrol in a single game session was just too restrictive for me.

It's funny that even SH3 has trouble with save/reload behavior. My profession is systems. Now, I can understand how dynamic state information may fail to be written to disk from a technical point of view. But I simply cannot accept that as a basic premise a game designer cannot design a simple working save/reload feature. One simply has to make sure that data structures are allocated in one dynamic heap/stack and then serialize that and spit it to disk. Building a working architecture for save/reload should be one of the first steps before worrying about the details of the game itself. I guess that explains why some programmers are writting the code for games and other write the code for trading systems and flight control systems. Those who cannot manage to code save/reload; end up in game programming, I guess.

[SteveW1]

Wait until you give SH4 a try fully modded with the Trigger Maru mod and ROW mod think you will be moving SH3/GWX to 2nd place.

[nikimcbee]

I'd say, un-modded, SHCE is the winner for me.
...but SH3 GWX is just awesome!