29th flotilla Gibraltar run

Keelbuster · 11-08-07, 02:27 PM

GWX 1.03 - i'm in the 29th flotilla. It's June 44 and based on the GWX manual, 29th disbands in august or september. I want to make the gibraltar run. In previous careers, i've seen the radio message ordering med. uboats to either scuttle or run make the gibraltar run. Unfortunately in those cases I was outside the med. Not this time. Does anyone know if when I'm back at Toulon and the date goes past august, will I be automatically whisked to a french port outside the med, or will I be ordered to make the run? Do I have to be at sea to get this order? I can imagine being at sea and it suddenly changing my return port to Nazaire. If that's what's required, I will stay arrange to be at sea when that happens. If you guys have done this, let me know so I can do it right - I _must_ attempt the run. Anyone know the exact date that the order gets sent out? My whole career has been leading up to this.

Packerton · 11-08-07, 03:53 PM

Rule number 1 of U boat Warfare: STAY AWAY FROM DER CANAL.

Rule number 2 of U boat warefare: STAY AWAY FROM DER GIBRALTAR!

Not sure what you can do in that situation though, try to make the run after waiting for bad weather to give you the highest rate of sucesss, I play at 100% Realism though so it may be a bit easier for you.

Good luck.

baggygreen · 11-08-07, 04:13 PM

I dont think you get a message. Course, i dunno what 44 is, never having made it that far! my guess is that the port will change hands and if you try to dock there you'll be in a bit of trouble. If you're out at sea while the swap takes place, make sure you've got enough fuel for the journey...

Von Manteuffel · 11-08-07, 04:22 PM

Night; poor weather if possible; fully silent-running; no more than 3 knots - be prepared to stop and start a lot; periscope dpth, but minimal use of the 'scope. Stay as close to the North African shore as you can without getting into very shallow water - creep and crawl and, with luck, you might make it.

Luck.

Keelbuster · 11-08-07, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Von Manteuffel

Luck.

Luck - and a pressure hull that can do 450.

Gezoes · 11-08-07, 05:11 PM

Well, I'd like to do that run oneday, so I'm all ears!

KeptinCranky · 11-08-07, 05:30 PM

I've busted in in '42 once but never busted out again,
this wasn't really feasible historically because there's a 2 or 3 knot current against if you try to head west, this would seriously hamper any attempt at running silent and then there's only one thing that might save you, Keelbuster's mighty pressure hull that goes to 450, and maybe not even that.

LeafsFan · 11-08-07, 06:19 PM

Good Luck!!

HB

Hartmann · 11-08-07, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Von Manteuffel

Night; poor weather if possible; fully silent-running; no more than 3 knots - be prepared to stop and start a lot; periscope dpth, but minimal use of the 'scope. Stay as close to the North African shore as you can without getting into very shallow water - creep and crawl and, with luck, you might make it.

Luck.

Very good advices

i sneaked inside the med running near of the africa coast in january of 1942 with a IX-B boat, but is easier because the allied radar is less developed, but i had to dive and run several times.

in 1944 probably could be done but a snorkel could be very useful.

In command aces of the deep it was very well simulated, because there are a submarine current of 6-7 knts and is impossible go to the atlantic dived.

Vacillator · 11-09-07, 05:00 AM

[/quote]

Luck - and a pressure hull that can do 450.

[/quote]

Aren't the Straits somewhat shallow? A 450 hull will not be of much use in that case.

Or are there bits that deep?

EDIT: Okay Wikipedia tells me:
'The strait depth ranges between 300 and 900 meters.'

So maybe a 450 hull would be useful after all

Fenris_Wolf · 11-09-07, 05:01 AM

The old man said that there are two parallel currents in the strait at different depths, flowing opposite to each other?

Even if you could dive to 450m I don't think the strait is deep enough. As a hint, most of the patrols travel from coast to coast (perpendicular to your path) with the occasional DD zig-zagging through the strait. Lots of smaller boats in those patrols too (and all the merchant traffic will keep your sonar busy).

My advice would be the same as Von Manteuffel's because that's how I crossed the strait. In your case, the schnorkell should make things much easier.

Von Manteuffel · 11-09-07, 07:42 AM

I've tried it several times - just for the Hell of it, usually when I've completed an assigned patrol in that neck of the woods - and failed more times than I've succeeded ( and, "Yes" I always saved-game before attempting it). The key is to remain undetected. Once they know you're there, chances are you're history. With so little room for manouevre, the need to avoid giving them a precise fix on your position and several Tommies hunting you simultaneously it's usually "Auf wiedersehen und gute nacht!"

I had a few days in Gibraltar in September and, having seen the Straits for myself now I find it difficult to believe that anything the British didn't want to get through could do so. I met an ex RN officer who's retired to Gib. He was in Destroyers ( post War ) and summed up any attempt by a U-Boat to get through the Straits of Gibraltar during WWII as " a remarkably elaborate way of committing suicide."

Vacillator · 11-09-07, 07:53 AM

I got to wondering how many boats tried, and either succeeded or failed. Found the following map of known sinkings:

http://uboat.net/maps/gibraltar.htm

That doesn't seem that many (on a cold statistical basis), so does that mean not many tried?

Torplexed · 11-09-07, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vacillator

I got to wondering how many boats tried, and either succeeded or failed. Found the following map of known sinkings:

http://uboat.net/maps/gibraltar.htm

That doesn't seem that many (on a cold statistical basis), so does that mean not many tried?

According to the same site (u-boat.net) the Germans managed to send 62 U-boats into the Mediterranean. 9 U-boats where sunk while attempting passage and 10 more had to abort their attempt due to damage.

Von Manteuffel · 11-09-07, 08:10 AM

Quote:

That doesn't seem that many

Dunno. 15 boats in a few hundred miles of ocean centering on the Straits counts as a lot to me. And what would be the purpose? We know that breaking out of the Med into the Atlantic was immensely difficult because of the West to East current. Most places and convoy routes in the Med were within range of Axis warplanes based in Europe, so why risk trying to transfer valuable boats and crews from the Atlantic to the Med?

Especially since it's acknowledged that U-boat offensives were designed to "blockade" Britain and deny her supplies from the US and other non-occupied countries - so the Atlantic was the place.

I believe the reason so many boats were lost in the approchaes to the Straits is, not that they were trying to break through to the other side - no real point, but were hunting merchants which were using the Straits and found themselves in very heavily-protected waters.

11-08-07, 02:27 PM	#1
Keelbuster Ace of the Deep Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: BA 72 Posts: 1,092 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	29th flotilla Gibraltar run GWX 1.03 - i'm in the 29th flotilla. It's June 44 and based on the GWX manual, 29th disbands in august or september. I want to make the gibraltar run. In previous careers, i've seen the radio message ordering med. uboats to either scuttle or run make the gibraltar run. Unfortunately in those cases I was outside the med. Not this time. Does anyone know if when I'm back at Toulon and the date goes past august, will I be automatically whisked to a french port outside the med, or will I be ordered to make the run? Do I have to be at sea to get this order? I can imagine being at sea and it suddenly changing my return port to Nazaire. If that's what's required, I will stay arrange to be at sea when that happens. If you guys have done this, let me know so I can do it right - I _must_ attempt the run. Anyone know the exact date that the order gets sent out? My whole career has been leading up to this. __________________

11-08-07, 03:53 PM	#2
Packerton Sonar Guy Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Newfoundland,Canada Posts: 398 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Rule number 1 of U boat Warfare: STAY AWAY FROM DER CANAL. Rule number 2 of U boat warefare: STAY AWAY FROM DER GIBRALTAR! Not sure what you can do in that situation though, try to make the run after waiting for bad weather to give you the highest rate of sucesss, I play at 100% Realism though so it may be a bit easier for you. Good luck. __________________ GWX crew member. Come Hell or High water, we get it done!

11-08-07, 05:11 PM	#6
Gezoes XO Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 435 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	Well, I'd like to do that run oneday, so I'm all ears! __________________ If I wasn't a little mad, I'd go mad.

11-09-07, 05:00 AM	#10
Vacillator Frogman Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 307 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	[/quote] Luck - and a pressure hull that can do 450. [/quote] Aren't the Straits somewhat shallow? A 450 hull will not be of much use in that case. Or are there bits that deep? EDIT: Okay Wikipedia tells me: 'The strait depth ranges between 300 and 900 meters.' So maybe a 450 hull would be useful after all Last edited by Vacillator; 11-09-07 at 05:10 AM.

11-09-07, 05:01 AM	#11
Fenris_Wolf Sparky Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 155 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	The old man said that there are two parallel currents in the strait at different depths, flowing opposite to each other? Even if you could dive to 450m I don't think the strait is deep enough. As a hint, most of the patrols travel from coast to coast (perpendicular to your path) with the occasional DD zig-zagging through the strait. Lots of smaller boats in those patrols too (and all the merchant traffic will keep your sonar busy). My advice would be the same as Von Manteuffel's because that's how I crossed the strait. In your case, the schnorkell should make things much easier. __________________ NO HOOCHIE WOOCHIE - NO LIFE!

11-08-07, 04:13 PM	#3
baggygreen Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Canberra, ACT, Down Under (really On Top) Posts: 1,880 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	I dont think you get a message. Course, i dunno what 44 is, never having made it that far! my guess is that the port will change hands and if you try to dock there you'll be in a bit of trouble. If you're out at sea while the swap takes place, make sure you've got enough fuel for the journey...

11-08-07, 04:22 PM	#4
Von Manteuffel Commander Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: UK Posts: 473 Downloads: 411 Uploads: 0	Night; poor weather if possible; fully silent-running; no more than 3 knots - be prepared to stop and start a lot; periscope dpth, but minimal use of the 'scope. Stay as close to the North African shore as you can without getting into very shallow water - creep and crawl and, with luck, you might make it. Luck.

11-08-07, 05:30 PM	#7
KeptinCranky Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,050 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	I've busted in in '42 once but never busted out again, this wasn't really feasible historically because there's a 2 or 3 knot current against if you try to head west, this would seriously hamper any attempt at running silent and then there's only one thing that might save you, Keelbuster's mighty pressure hull that goes to 450, and maybe not even that.

11-08-07, 06:19 PM	#8
LeafsFan Watch Officer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 332 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Good Luck!! HB

11-09-07, 07:42 AM	#12
Von Manteuffel Commander Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: UK Posts: 473 Downloads: 411 Uploads: 0	I've tried it several times - just for the Hell of it, usually when I've completed an assigned patrol in that neck of the woods - and failed more times than I've succeeded ( and, "Yes" I always saved-game before attempting it). The key is to remain undetected. Once they know you're there, chances are you're history. With so little room for manouevre, the need to avoid giving them a precise fix on your position and several Tommies hunting you simultaneously it's usually "Auf wiedersehen und gute nacht!" I had a few days in Gibraltar in September and, having seen the Straits for myself now I find it difficult to believe that anything the British didn't want to get through could do so. I met an ex RN officer who's retired to Gib. He was in Destroyers ( post War ) and summed up any attempt by a U-Boat to get through the Straits of Gibraltar during WWII as " a remarkably elaborate way of committing suicide."

11-09-07, 07:53 AM	#13
Vacillator Frogman Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 307 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I got to wondering how many boats tried, and either succeeded or failed. Found the following map of known sinkings: http://uboat.net/maps/gibraltar.htm That doesn't seem that many (on a cold statistical basis), so does that mean not many tried?