Salty Captains

[Captain_AJ]

As I have been patrolling In the pacific .. Iam Undoubtablly more comfortable waving that german flag as opposed to me shooting my virtual brothers .. Its too bad that in this sim there wasnt a chance that I could man a japanese sub.. , However the concepts are the same in Sh3 . so a great time consumming , past-time I guess that I feel fine , at least for now .. one thing is imersion . Going into a battle , you dont Know what the outcome will be , Plotting , sneaking around , trying to intercept , Unlike sh3 , Convoys have been small . Thus so far . it has been what I observerd .. Concepts of conserving fuel and patrolloing a corridor so that the IJN can be intercepeted . Is very different , than Being a U-Boat Captain . Guess after I prove to myself . I will go back into my trusty u-68 . in the atlantic , forever a salty Captain . Now moving north towards Kushu .. Banzai !!

[Reaves]

I know how you feel. I always felt a bit dodgy sinking the Brits in SH3. (My mum is one)

You can always have a break and go online. YOu get to sink US subs in convoy commander.

[Von Manteuffel]

Gentlemen, your sensitivities and sensibilities do you great credit. My father went to war in 1939 in the British Army. His three brothers all joined the Royal Navy. All survived - thank Goodness, but I remember my two uncles who were in destroyers talking about some of the things they had seen. It was actually their silences which spoke loudest.

If the game we play recreated the true horror of ships struck by torpedoes - men mutiliated, burnt, scalded, blinded and choked by swimming in fuel-oil, I don't believe any but the sickest minds would go near it. But, thankfully, the game concentrates on the mechanics and tactics of submarine warfare, not its human consequences.

And in the game, you're not sinking Brits, or Japs, or Yanks, or Jerries - you're firing a virtual weapon at an often anonymous virtual ship whose flag delineates that it's "one of theirs" rather than "one of ours."

A great computer game SH IV certainly is - as is SH III. War they are definitely not.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Von Manteuffel

Gentlemen, your sensitivities and sensibilities do you great credit. My father went to war in 1939 in the British Army. His three brothers all joined the Royal Navy. All survived - thank Goodness, but I remember my two uncles who were in destroyers talking about some of the things they had seen. It was actually their silences which spoke loudest.

If the game we play recreated the true horror of ships struck by torpedoes - men mutiliated, burnt, scalded, blinded and choked by swimming in fuel-oil, I don't believe any but the sickest minds would go near it. But, thankfully, the game concentrates on the mechanics and tactics of submarine warfare, not its human consequences.

And in the game, you're not sinking Brits, or Japs, or Yanks, or Jerries - you're firing a virtual weapon at an often anonymous virtual ship whose flag delineates that it's "one of theirs" rather than "one of ours."

A great computer game SH IV certainly is - as is SH III. War they are definitely not.

I also appreciate the differences between SH3 and SH4. I have no problem whatever manning a U-Boat and appreciating how much more dangerous it was to be a U-Boat skipper rather than an American. Those Limey destroyers are murder and they travel in large, well-defended convoys. I never appreciated to true aggressiveness and courage of the U-Boat captains until I played Silent Hunter 3. Those were MEN.

SH4, on the other hand, has a whole different and equally challenging set of circumstances. The first is the unimaginable vastness of the Pacific. This dilutes the target base so that at times finding targets is maddeningly difficult. And why do all the best hunting grounds have 200' of water? I remember the comments of a German submariner after the identification of the sunken U-Who (look it up). He said, "Only 250 feet of water. He never had a chance." What? That's SOP in parts of the Pacific! I've BEGGED for another 50' so I could have 250 feet under my keel. I didn't get it either and had the destroyer from hell on top of me.

Both games are text books in disguise. Both let us identify and appreciate men who we never would have known, the Germans for me and the Americans for kimuraijn. We can value the courage and skill of both sides now that the animosity of a terrible time has gone. That is the value of both Silent Hunters.

[Mostinius]

Originally Posted by Von Manteuffel

A great computer game SH IV certainly is - as is SH III. War they are definitely not.

Well said - and yes, I can relate to the other posters here as I too have occasionally felt just a flicker of guilt when I've sent a simulated British ship to the bottom. But Von Manteuffel makes the key point: they are simulated. This got me thinking on:

It's easy for people who don't partake of our particular pastime to assume that we do it because we 'like' war or wish to glorify it. In most cases, at least in my experience, computer simmers fully appreciate (as best one can who hasn't served in the military, and I know some here have) the difference between the horrific and repellent reality and a comfortable, safe, consequence-free simulation. As I usually say on this topic, a good simulation is simply a logical extension of chess: war as a game to challenge and stimulate the mind. And Rockin Robbins called the games 'textbooks in disguise'. I agree. If nothing else, a simulation of land, sea or air combat can teach us just a tiny, detached bit about some of the challenges that people have had to face in real life. Personally, at the risk of sounding pretentious, I think it helps me to appreciate their courage all the more, and to understand just how unlikely I would be to cope as they coped. I remember watching through the intro sequence for B-17: The Mighty Eighth and being struck by the reference in the voice-over to the 'brave Luftwaffe pilots' who engaged the bomber fleets. Just a few simple words, but still somehow powerful food for thought.

[namika]

I have to say that I too rather fly a German flag than an American one, even though I'm not torpedoing my brethrens in any of the SH games. I learn the German language and I just feel closer to them becouse of the neighbouring Austria and the close Germany and our closer history.

I have nothing against nor the USA neither the other Allies and both side's soldiers fought bravely. I respect all of the living and fallen soldiers. Some say they were heroes, but I say that all the human beings who fought in such a bloody storm, which raged over the whole world, and changed it dramatically are worth to be respected ,may they be of any nationality. That's why when we are in our WW2 or 1848/49 reenactment team, we salute before all the war monuments, may it be Hungarian, Austrian, German, Russian. They remind us of something, something horrible that shouldn't come back again.

Luckily I have no special bad feelings (sometimes the thought of killing people is just enough of a bad feeling) in this game. There were some strategy games when I had felt being guilty while playing the Russians for example. Both of my grandfathers fought against them and both of the had a tragical life after the war. I just have to mention Siberia's camps and you know what that means.

But indeed this is a game, we should try and not let our feelings get too serious.

[USAFLance]

Originally Posted by Mostinius

I remember watching through the intro sequence for B-17: The Mighty Eighth and being struck by the reference in the voice-over to the 'brave Luftwaffe pilots' who engaged the bomber fleets. Just a few simple words, but still somehow powerful food for thought.

I know exactly the quote you talk about. Honestly, especially with the awesome music playing in the background, my eyes seriously swelled up. I thought to myself how wonderful it is to see somebody take into account the honor and valor of the men/women of the other side. They, after all, were people, too and deserve our respect.

just me $.02

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by namika

I have to say that I too rather fly a German flag than an American one, even though I'm not torpedoing my brethrens in any of the SH games.

But indeed this is a game, we should try and not let our feelings get too serious.

But that is exactly the point. How much more difficult is it than your position to be an American or British fully aware of the undisguised and flagrant evil of Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party (which you understand far better than I) to appreciate the heroism and courage of the German soldier or submarine sailor, who really could care less about the Final Solution of all that racial fallacy, and was just fighting because they were German. If you asked they would probably say the equivalent of "We are German, what else would you expect us to do?"

The amazing thing is that we can rise above real issues of leadership right and wrong and appreciate the goodness of the man in the trenches, or in our case here, the submarine, regardless of what side he fought on. Courage is courage. Great decisions are great decisions. Great men are great men, even when they fight on the "wrong side."

Even in the midst of the war, American sub skippers studied German U-Boat captains with thinly disguised admiration. They consciously imitated their tactics and methods, knowing that excellence knows no boundaries.

And then there was Captain Eugene Fluckey of the USS Barb, who took what he learned and then cranked submarine warfare up to a level unknown even to the Germans. But unlike Guenther Prein (sorry, American keyboard here) who returned from Scapa Flow a national hero, Fluckey performed his exploits in enforced secrecy, unable to tell even his family what he had accomplished.

Part of the success of the American war in the Pacific was learning from the Germans' mistakes. Knowing that the achilles heel of the Unterseeboote, and what resulted in their defeat, was their indiscriminate use of the radio, American subs held strict radio silence except for emergencies. So even there, the American sub program owed its success to close familiarity with their German counterparts.

I for one do not feel the least bit bad about playing a German in SH3. Separation from the hatred that spawned the warfare is essential to learning anything from that ultimate tragedy that killed two hundred million souls. Perhaps the most important lesson we can learn from Silent Hunter 3 and 4 is that even the combatants were, in the final analysis, innocent victims to be admired, respected and sometimes pitied.

[Linavitch]

Damn it!

I thought they were a new type of breakfast serials to compete with Golden Grahams.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Linavitch

Damn it!

I thought they were a new type of breakfast serials to compete with Golden Grahams.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

That was priceless!

[Ducimus]

Playing as a German Sub in the atlantic is undeniably fun. I have had no qualms about playing as a german in SH3. Personally, my only qualm is when people take "getting into the game" to an extreme level. For example, i could never willingly put A nazi emblem of any shape or form on my conning tower, nor in a signiture pic for the forums. Others do, but i couldnt do it.

I think my bottom line point there is, admiration of the Uboat, as a weapon, and its employment in the atlantic theater, thats all fine. Im with that all the way. Its an amazing part of history, and the magnitude in humanity is staggering. But there comes a point where that admiration turns into "hero worship", and i've always felt that "hero worship" of the service who was responsible for the deaths of thousands of allied sailors, who fought against ones home nation - is hero worship misplaced. I have always respected this portion of history, and respected the human ordeal on the Ubootwaffes side of the story, its quite a story to be sure, and one i have empathy for, but i have never lost perspective of what flag they sailed under.

[USAFLance]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I have always respected this portion of history, and respected the human ordeal on the Ubootwaffes side of the story, its quite a story to be sure, and one i have empathy for, but i have never lost perspective of what flag they sailed under.

Well said.

[McBeck]

Rest of the OT posts moved here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=120545

Shall we stay on topic??